FMVSS 213 compliance testing

[Pixels]

In at least one case that I know of, there is an error in the summary file. It lists the ComforSport as being tested RFing with the 3yo dummy, but if you look at the actual report, the 3yo test was FFing.

[chickabiddy]

Originally Posted by kittykate

Some seats (the Nautilus comes to mind, as does the Scenera) have a a foot that when used (or when its not used with the Scenera) allows the seat to recline slightly when in FF mode. Others adjust in the base to allow a slight FF recline.

And check the manuals. Britax only allows FFing recline up to 33# (I think) -- which is sort of moot, because from a safety standpoint, a 33# child should be rearfacing.

[christineka]

Originally Posted by chickabiddy

And check the manuals. Britax only allows FFing recline up to 33# (I think) -- which is sort of moot, because from a safety standpoint, a 33# child should be rearfacing.

The scenera manual also only allows the seat to be in reclined mode ffing to get a proper fit- not so the child is reclined.

[Maedze]

Originally Posted by akearney3

This forum should be a comfortable place to ask questions and state opinions--not an intimidating forum where you run into cyber bullies.

We are all adults and love children in general. Let's keep that the focus of this thread.

If you saw an instance of 'cyber bullying' you should use the report button.

People disagreeing with you, or objecting to a characterization you've made of technicians on this board, does not constitute cyber bullying.

[chickabiddy]

Yes. Strong statements often get strong responses. If the strong statement was not bullying, the response isn't either.

[Admin]

This thread has not only been informative, but also very reasonable in terms of people politely sharing different opinions.

[jujumum]

Originally Posted by akearney3

I do have one question about these results: The results show that dummies forward face are tested U (upright) and R (reclined). Do you have the option of FFing your little one reclined?

The Radian & the GN have a recline feature specifically for ff, which is different than the Radian rf recline boot. Other seats have been mentioned, already.

[firemomof3]

OK, so here is a question for everyone;
DD2 is beginning to refuse to ride rf in her XT, its a daily battle. So, if I were to turn her forward facing which seat is going to be safest for her?! With all the numbers I cannot figure out which is going to be best
She is 3.5y/o 30lbs. and 39" tall, her seat will be tethered.

HIC Head Excursion
Young Sport 300 538
Radian XT 254 559
GN 264 508

[TechnoGranola]

Originally Posted by firemomof3

OK, so here is a question for everyone;
DD2 is beginning to refuse to ride rf in her XT, its a daily battle.

Just curious how you know it's the RF that's bothering her? I know my 3 year old went through a stage of refusing to get in her seat (just before she turned 3), it would literally take us 20-30min in the mornings to get her in, she'd dance around the vehicle and wouldn't sit in her seat, if I put her in, she'd scream and kick so I couldn't buckle her up, it was horrid! This lasted for a couple months. Then, one day, DH was going to the store and DD wanted to go along. He told her he couldn't take her because she takes too long to get into her seat and won't cooperate. She wanted to go to the store so bad that she said she would cooperate and she did and has for the last month and a half. (unless she is way overtired then we still have a bit of a struggle but only for a few minutes). My oldest also went through this stage at a bit younger age, but for almost 6 months! Ugh. And her seat was FF (there was no RF car seat for her back then). So, I've always thought this was a car seat issue, not a directional issue.

I am long winded, but my question is, how do you tell the difference between RF bothering her and it just being a stage they will outgrow? Do you have some others cues letting you know it's the RF that's causing the issue?

[joolsplus3]

Originally Posted by firemomof3

OK, so here is a question for everyone;
DD2 is beginning to refuse to ride rf in her XT, its a daily battle. So, if I were to turn her forward facing which seat is going to be safest for her?! With all the numbers I cannot figure out which is going to be best
She is 3.5y/o 30lbs. and 39" tall, her seat will be tethered.

HIC Head Excursion
Young Sport 300 538
Radian XT 254 559
GN 264 508

I'd choose the one that installs best and is easiest to use properly every time. Seems like too simple of an answer, I know, but it's really the truth. I'd also probably choose the one that her head doesn't flop when sleeping. If her head is dangling forward of the wings then the seat is offering a lot less side impact protection should you get T-boned.

[firemomof3]

Thank you both for your responses. DD2 is old enough now to really voice her opinion and she wants to be ff like her sister. This has been going on for a while now and I though she had given up on the argument because on a long trip last month she was ff in her YS and she complained that her legs hurt. So, I told her that her legs wouldn't hurt rf and she went back to her XT.
She loves the GN & YS because I think it makes her feel like a big girl and she feels good about herself when she rides in these seats. At 3.5y/o I'm feeling like she deserves a "voice"...but I know as much as anyone here about the increased safety rf so I will continue to encourage her to rf.
She has head flop in the GN, but sleeps very nicely in the YS. So I guess the YS is the one I'll go with. I'm surprised the Radian didn't get better numbers for head excursion with the safestop

[joolsplus3]

The Safestop INcreases head excursion. The numbers should be lower if it were removed. (The longer it takes you to come to a dead stop, the less your chances of being injured. Throw an egg at a brick wall, it stops REALLY fast and breaks. Throw an egg at foam, the foam makes it slow down over a longer period, and it doesn't break. The safestop is just an extra layer of 'foam' to slow down your stopping time... the seatbelt and harness and the car itself are the major factors, though, so other seats without safestops or rip stitch tethers are also still safe to use).

[Pixels]

Originally Posted by firemomof3

I'm surprised the Radian didn't get better numbers for head excursion with the safestop

The SafeStop actually increases head excursion, which is part of why there is a weight limit on it. The SafeStop is designed to limit the load on the neck by allowing the harness to stretch, increasing ride-down time. Because it allows the harness to stretch, it increases head excursion (and possibly knee excursion as well).

[jujumum]

Originally Posted by firemomof3

So I guess the YS is the one I'll go with. I'm surprised the Radian didn't get better numbers for head excursion with the safestop

This is something that I've been wondering about, too.

But, someone posted that head excursion is the measurement from the vehicle seatback to the extension of the head of the child, rather than the actual neck elongation. (You may already know this, but I'm not a tech, so I this was news to me. I'm learning new things here every day.).

So, if a Radian's safe stop is an elastic harness part that stretches more to reduce strain on the neck, wouldn't it actually make the head excursion numbers higher than without it? The trade off is that there may be less strain on the neck with the safe stop? If there is plenty of space between the seat in front of the child seat, perhaps a Radian with safe stop and higher extursion numbers is better than a seat with lower excursion numbers?

ETA: I was typing the same time as Jools and Pixels - Thanks!!

Regarding the YS, could you tell me if it has metal bars inside like the Vivo?

[firemomof3]

Thank you for that explanation reguarding the safestop!! I understand now and it makes sense to me
Metal bars? I just went out and looked at the YS and I don't see any

[TechnoGranola]

Originally Posted by firemomof3

Thank you both for your responses. DD2 is old enough now to really voice her opinion and she wants to be ff like her sister. This has been going on for a while now and I though she had given up on the argument because on a long trip last month she was ff in her YS and she complained that her legs hurt. So, I told her that her legs wouldn't hurt rf and she went back to her XT.

Ah ha, that would be the difference then, your child has a FF to look at! My oldest is in a seat belt only, so although the little one jokes that she's going to sit like her sister, she understands that seat belts are for "big people only" and the only car seats she sees is RF.

[CPSDarren]

Originally Posted by joolsplus3

I'd choose the one that installs best and is easiest to use properly every time. Seems like too simple of an answer, I know, but it's really the truth. I'd also probably choose the one that her head doesn't flop when sleeping. If her head is dangling forward of the wings then the seat is offering a lot less side impact protection should you get T-boned.

Agreed. These tests are pass/fail tests for compliance. They are not intended for safety comparisons and the results are probably close to meaningless in that regard. Other factors like fit to vehicle, fit to child and ease of use are more important for models that pass the compliance testing. Until the NHTSA develops a program with testing specifically designed to allow parents to compare the crash safety of child seats, discussions like this are purely theoretical with little practical application.

In a general sense, though, I think head excursion numbers are likely to prove to be the most important.

[romanoma]

so in thinking about the safestop and similar type features that are meant to increase head excursion and ride down time, it makes me think that we are off in thinking that the smallest HE numbers are automatically the best. I mean, it seems like maybe somewhere in the middle is the place to shoot for? Unless you have a tiny backseat, then maybe the smallest #s. Or a huge backseat, then maybe the largest numbers. Does this make sense? Do you think this could be widely applicable?

But here again, another reason why testing on a sled bench is very very far from telling us what happens in real life. soooooo much depends on the car and the space the child is surrounded by.

[bobandjess99]

Originally Posted by romanoma

so in thinking about the safestop and similar type features that are meant to increase head excursion and ride down time, it makes me think that we are off in thinking that the smallest HE numbers are automatically the best. I mean, it seems like maybe somewhere in the middle is the place to shoot for? Unless you have a tiny backseat, then maybe the smallest #s. Or a huge backseat, then maybe the largest numbers. Does this make sense? Do you think this could be widely applicable?

But here again, another reason why testing on a sled bench is very very far from telling us what happens in real life. soooooo much depends on the car and the space the child is surrounded by.

Well, on that note, I think you are getting into the "FFharness vs. booster" debate. When you talk about ride down time, you're talking about crash forces. In a harness, you have all the force of the forward movement essentially on the neck itself, since the body/shoulders are held back by the harness. In a booster, while it might "look" worse in a crash test, having the one side of the body fly forward and letting some of the non-neck parts of the body, - the back, the length of the spine, shoulder, arm, etc absorb and dissipate some of that force might actually be a safer option than restraining the torso and letting all the force act upon the neck as the head is the only unrestrained body part.
I know we fixate of FF harnessing, even extended harnessing, and harp upon the importance of being "mature" and not wiggling, etc before moving into a booster, etc, but right now, I'm not sure we have enough data to support that? I think we all know that Sweden seems to feel like they have enough data to support the earlier boostering side. so.....that's why it comes down to parental choice, i guess.

[romanoma]

But if a kid wiggles out of the seat belt, they would still be safer in a harness. whole torso excursion would be much much less safe. I think I have just heard people here say that they have to be mature enough to sit properly in a seatbelt, not that they have to be 7yo (or some other magic number). If they can stay in the seatbelt, that is a safe option. That's what I have gotten from c-s.org.

But your point about a properly used booster vs harnessed seat is a good one, one that needs more testing. I think most parents are worried that their kid might be wiggling out of the seatbelt at just the wrong moment, making that a much less safe option. There is great peace of mind with a harness if the kid is not 100% reliable in a booster.