Why a 5 point harness car seat?????????

ADS

UlrikeDG

Admin - CPS Technician Emeritus
I saw the first one on an unrelated parenting list today. Here was my response:
I have mixed feelings about that video. On one hand, there is no doubt that a 5-point harness offers better protection than a 3-point seatbelt; that's why race car drivers use 5-point harnesses.

On the other hand, there is no way a properly used seatbelt should have failed in a crash like the one described in that video. Either the belt was improperly fastened (user error), or the mechanism failed, and the vehicle manufacturer should issue a recall to replace the mechanism in all their other vehicles to prevent a similar malfunction in the future. Even a 5-point harness seat must be properly secured to the vehicle to work. If the seatbelt isn't fastened or the buckle mechanism is fault, the harnessed seat will also be thrown from the vehicle, and ejection significantly increases the risk of death in a motor vehicle crash.

The top tether is *not* a substitute for proper safety seat installation or seatbelt use. The top tether serves to decrease head excursion, reducing the risk of injury, especially head injury. It is interesting to note that the shoulder belt portion of a seatbelt used to install a front facing 5-point seat will also help to reduce head excursion (when compared to a lap belt only installation). "Best practice" is to tether the seat if a tether anchor is available, because it improves the performance of the seat.

Many vehicles that don't have anchors installed can be retrofitted with *top* tether anchors. The cost varies greatly, from free to several hundred dollars. A tech with a LATCH manual can tell you if your vehicle can be retrofitted and give you the part numbers if your vehicle manual is unclear. Frustratingly, service centers often don't know anything about top tethers, so it is usually best to educate yourself before taking your vehicle in. (Please note that only a few vehicle models can be retrofitted with *lower* "LATCH" anchors. See http://www.car-safety.org/latch.html for more detailed information.)

Even an untethered seat provides excellent crash protection when properly installed. Proper use is the key, whether you have a rear facing seat, a front facing seat, a booster or a plain ol' seatbelt. You need to be sure that whatever restraint system you use is appropriate for your child's size and current stage of development. For example, a large 3 year old may fit well in a booster seat but be unable to sit still for the entire trip, making a 5 point harness a better choice. A large 2 year old may be too heavy for a rear facing seat and need to sit front facing, while a small 4 year old would still fit and be safer rear facing. As always, the *best* restraint is one which:
- Fits the child.
- Fits the vehicle.
- Fits the budget.
- Will be used properly every single trip.
 

rj'smom

New member
No disrespect, but regardless of whether it's a large 2 year old or a small 4 year old, I don't believe that a regular seat belt in a booster seat would save a child from the violent forward thrust. No matter how correct they are installed or fastened. Just the violent forward thrust alone would yank a childs skull right off their spinal cord along with ripping their arms and legs from their joints.

It is a shame that the manufacturers are aloud to over price these child restraint seats when they are legally required. I feel that there should be a government regulation put on them. They should require a cost cap so that the low income families can afford them. There are too many of those families that are going out and buying used, out dated seats and that puts those children at risks of serious injury and/or death.
 

rj'smom

New member
Continued:

Seat belts with age have a tendency to not work, just as aged seat belts in a car seat. This is why car seats are only good for 6 years so there won't be a defect, a death and thus a recall of the safety seat, as in years past.
Unfortunately if the seat belt affixed to the car comes unfastened and thus the booster seat fails to protect, then no one is liable and there is no recall. You may feel that a seat belt and booster seat (properly installed) is good enough. I beg to differ since a car's seat belts are created by man and don't have an infinite life span either. The older the vehicle, the more likely it will come unfastened in an auto accident. I choose to protect MY child in a more secure fastening system.

And as far as 'fitting the budget' there is no amount of money considered a waste when it comes to my child's safety -- If I can spend $200+ on nursery decor then I can spend the same to adequately protect my child, and I will understand opposing views on this matter.
 
Last edited:

Simplysomething

New member
Continued:

Seat belts with age have a tendency to not work, just as aged seat belts in a car seat. .

Out of pure curiousity, do you have an sites for that? About seat belts having a tendency to not work, it suggests that people who drive older cars are having seat belt failures often.
 

UlrikeDG

Admin - CPS Technician Emeritus
No disrespect, but regardless of whether it's a large 2 year old or a small 4 year old, I don't believe that a regular seat belt in a booster seat would save a child from the violent forward thrust.

Properly used child restraints save lives. A 40 lb 2 year old cannot ride rear facing, because there is not a single seat in the US which can be used rear facing to 40 lb. Therefore, the safest option for a 40 lb 2 year old would be a front facing 5-point harness. A booster would not be an appropriate option for a 2 year old, because a 2 year old lacks the maturity to sit properly in a booster without wiggling or leaning out of position. Additionally, there are a number of 5-point harness restraints which can be used to 60 lb or beyond.

Meanwhile, a small 4 year old may weigh only 32 lb. That child could remain rear facing, if his/her seat allows.

Motor vehicle crashes are, by definition, violent. Proper restraint--every step of the way--decreases the risk of injury or death. Proper restraint for one child may look different from proper restraint for another. Proper restraint in one vehicle may look different from proper restraint for the same child in a different vehicle. There are *no* one size fits all solutions. Parents and technicians must look at all the variables of a given situation and try to come up with the best solution based on those variables and the available options.
 

urmysunshinex3

Senior Community Member
No disrespect, but regardless of whether it's a large 2 year old or a small 4 year old, I don't believe that a regular seat belt in a booster seat would save a child from the violent forward thrust. No matter how correct they are installed or fastened. Just the violent forward thrust alone would yank a childs skull right off their spinal cord along with ripping their arms and legs from their joints.

Yes, while a booster might not be the safest option for a big 2yo or small 4yo it could still help in an accident. The sister of the boy who didn't survive was also sitting in a high-back booster and was unharmed.
 

lovinwaves

New member
This is why car seats are only good for 6 years so there won't be a defect, a death and thus a recall of the safety seat, as in years past.
Unfortunately if the seat belt affixed to the car comes unfastened and thus the booster seat fails to protect, then no one is liable and there is no recall. You may feel that a seat belt and booster seat (properly installed) is good enough. I beg to differ since a car's seat belts are created by man and don't have an infinite life span either. The older the vehicle, the more likely it will come unfastened in an auto accident. I choose to protect MY child in a more secure fastening system.

Carseats expire for many reasons...One of the main reasons I believe is because of the detioration of the plastic. I have never heard of a carseat expiring because of the "Webbing" material(same material used to make car's seatbelts). Does anyone have any info on that?:confused:

Unfortunately, LATCH system's do have weight limits, so at some point you WILL have to rely on your car's seatbelt's to hold your child in. Whether that means a booster seat, or a five-point harnessed seat.

What you say, "I choose to protect MY child in a more secure fastening system", what do you mean by that. :)
 

lovinwaves

New member
It is a shame that the manufacturers are aloud to over price these child restraint seats when they are legally required. I feel that there should be a government regulation put on them. They should require a cost cap so that the low income families can afford them. There are too many of those families that are going out and buying used, out dated seats and that puts those children at risks of serious injury and/or death.

I don't feel carseats are overpriced at all? There are a variety of Brands of carseats on the market of different price ranges to fit everyone's budget, in the US at least. The Cosco Scenera for example is a great carseat that you can find on sale sometimes for $30 at Walmart.

I also think that carseats is one of those many "Expensive" things regarding raising children. It definitely is an expense you must factor in.:(
 

rj'smom

New member
Out of pure curiousity, do you have an sites for that? About seat belts having a tendency to not work, it suggests that people who drive older cars are having seat belt failures often.


Yes maam, I do. Here are a few articles that I found.


http://www.crash-worthiness.com/injury/seat-belt.html

http://www.crash-worthiness.com/html/defective-belts.html

http://www.productsliability.net/index.php/nd/resources/legal-articles/seat-belt-failure

I hope that these help.
 

rj'smom

New member
I don't feel carseats are overpriced at all? There are a variety of Brands of carseats on the market of different price ranges to fit everyone's budget, in the US at least. The Cosco Scenera for example is a great carseat that you can find on sale sometimes for $30 at Walmart.

I also think that carseats is one of those many "Expensive" things regarding raising children. It definitely is an expense you must factor in.:(



Please note that the Scenera seat you mentioned is only a 5 point harness seat to a maximum of 40 pounds. For the best protection a child should be in a 5 point harness beyond 40 lbs. There are several seats that protect beyond 40 pounds but they do cost more (and worth every penny). Here are the links...

The Britax Decathlon/Boulevard™/Marathon are convertible seats that are rated to 65 pounds front facing. Top shoulder height setting is around 17", a bit less for the Boulevard/Wizard.
The Britax Regent™, goes to 80 pounds with an internal 5-point harness. Top shoulder height setting is almost 21".
The Cosco/Safety 1st Apex goes to 65 pounds with an internal 5-point harness. Top shoulder height setting is about 17" but the vehicle must provide adequate head restraint.
Fisher Price has a new line of child seats manufactured by Britax. The Safe Voyage has a harness rated to 55 pounds. Top shoulder height setting is about 17" (estimate from Britax version).
The SafeGuard Child Seat goes to 65 pounds with an internal 5-point harness. Top shoulder height setting is about 19".

The SafeGuard Go Child Restraint goes to 60 pounds with a hybrid 5-point harness. Top shoulder height setting is 17 or more, depending on the vehicle. The vehicle must provide adequate head restraint.
The Sunshine Kids Radian™ goes to 65 pounds with an internal 5-point harness. Top shoulder height setting is 17"+. The seat is relatively narrow and can also be used rear-facing.
 

rj'smom

New member
I do hope that everyone here does not think that I am trying to start anything here. I just believe that our children should be protected at ALL costs.

If that means that we go so far as to have the seat belts in our vehicles inspected by a licensed professional, then by all means.

The base to my sons car seat is strapped in the middle of the back seat by the lap belt as well as securred down by the tethers. I put it in the middle of the back seat simple because if I were ever in an accident where someone hit be from the side, then he is even more protected.

It breaks my heart to know that there are parents out there that put their children at risk because they either don't have the money for a quality seat, don't secure the seat properly or don't have the patience or take the time to make sure that their child is properly strapped in the seat. There are too many babies/children that die unnecessarily because of these issues.
 

Jeanum

Admin - CPS Technician Emeritus
Staff member

While I appreciate the above links, they all appear to be on sites operated or sponsored by personal injury lawyers. It would be great IMO to see some stats about seatbelt failures from a more impartial source, if such a source actually exists. ;)

I'm of the opinion that seatbelts save many more lives than not, and have lost relatives to crashes they may have otherwise survived because they unwisely did not use their seatbelts (btw, these were folks who were quite vocal about never buckling up and there's no reason to suspect they had buckled up and the seatbelt failed). My DH walked away from a moderate/severe T-bone crash 7 years ago with a broken collarbone, perhaps caused by his shoulder belt. However, had he not been properly wearing that seatbelt, he would have suffered far worse head/neck/spinal injuries, if not died. He was driving a rented Dodge Intrepid with Gen3 belts at the time. I would also much rather install my DD's Regent with a vehicle seatbelt than misuse lower LATCH anchors beyond their rated weight limit. :) The key is to buckle up properly to the best of our abilities. :)
 
Last edited:

CatSanders

New member
I saw the videos last week and immediately came to this forum. While I understand how rare it is for something like that to happen, how would you feel if it did happen to you and you knew that it was possible and your child was injured or even worse killed? That was all that went running through my head when I wrote a check for $250 to buy the Britax Regent for my Daughter (almost 6 years old) on Tuesday. If, God forbid, something did happen to one of my children, I could never forgive myself especially having been warned that it was a possibility, as remote as that possibility was. $250 is ALOT of money for us..I am a SAHM with 3 small children- 1 1/2 months before Christmas (and 2 birthdays in January- DS #2 and DD) but for my peace of mind it was money well spent. We drove to the Bay Area last night and as my DD slept in her Regent I felt very secure in the knowledge that I have done everything possible to protect.

Cathy,
Mommy to Corinne 01/25/01
Charlie 06/06/03
Carson 01/16/06
 

Jeanum

Admin - CPS Technician Emeritus
Staff member
The base to my sons car seat is strapped in the middle of the back seat by the lap belt as well as securred down by the tethers. I put it in the middle of the back seat simple because if I were ever in an accident where someone hit be from the side, then he is even more protected.

It breaks my heart to know that there are parents out there that put their children at risk because they either don't have the money for a quality seat, don't secure the seat properly or don't have the patience or take the time to make sure that their child is properly strapped in the seat. There are too many babies/children that die unnecessarily because of these issues.

We cross-posted earlier and I didn't see you last post until now. While I'm all for installing a seat in the middle if you can achieve a proper installation, are you using both the seatbelt and lower LATCH anchors to secure your DS's seat? If that's the case, then you don't have a proper installation. :( With the exception of the Jane Indy Plus belt positioning booster seat, there are no seats on the market that allow using both the seatbelt and lower LATCH anchors simultaneously. It may seem intuitively safer to use both the seatbelt and lower LATCH anchors, but doing so could subject the carseat and/or the child to crash forces in a way that could potentially do more harm than good. Please reconsider installing the seat using the seatbelt or the lower LATCH anchors, not both. Feel free to post back with your vehicle's model year, make and model, and carseat brand and model, and someone here likely can offer you some installation tips if you like. :)
 

stayinhomewithmy6

Senior Community Member
Yes, please take the advice of Jean. She's right about the latch and seatbelt issue. You cannot use both because they have not been tested that way. With no testing available, nobody knows how they might perform in a crash. You should be able to get a good install using either the seatbelt or the latch anchors, and it is your choice which one you want to use, but you cannot use both.
 

twokidstwodogs

New member
I saw the videos last week and immediately came to this forum. While I understand how rare it is for something like that to happen, how would you feel if it did happen to you and you knew that it was possible and your child was injured or even worse killed? That was all that went running through my head when I wrote a check for $250 to buy the Britax Regent for my Daughter (almost 6 years old) on Tuesday. If, God forbid, something did happen to one of my children, I could never forgive myself especially having been warned that it was a possibility, as remote as that possibility was. $250 is ALOT of money for us..I am a SAHM with 3 small children- 1 1/2 months before Christmas (and 2 birthdays in January- DS #2 and DD) but for my peace of mind it was money well spent. We drove to the Bay Area last night and as my DD slept in her Regent I felt very secure in the knowledge that I have done everything possible to protect.

Cathy,
Mommy to Corinne 01/25/01
Charlie 06/06/03
Carson 01/16/06


Could we just remember that the video itself, however tragic, tells us nothing about the comparative safety of properly used booster seats vs. the Regent, or seat belts vs. LATCH? So far as I can tell, no one really knows what caused his ejection, much less what could have prevented it. I'm glad that it's causing people to rethink the safety of their current arrangements, but let's keep things in proportion to the evidence.

And although I'm from a family of lawyers, I agree wholeheartedly with Jeanum's comment about the source of those quotes on seatbelt failure.
 

twokidstwodogs

New member
Let me just add something. One of the sites that rj'smom quotes contains seriously outdated information about carseats. Here's what it says:

"Depending on the weight of the child, guardians should adjust how the child rides in a vehicle. A child under twenty pounds in weight should be put in a rear facing infant or convertible child safety seat. When the child grows to around twenty and forty pounds and/or is older than one year of age, a forward facing convertible child safety seat is suitable."

Note the "and/or". That's two recommendations ago!

These people either do not keep up with safety issues or don't care much about the accuracy of what they put on their website. Either way, I don't think it's a trustworthy source.
 

UlrikeDG

Admin - CPS Technician Emeritus
Carseats expire for many reasons...One of the main reasons I believe is because of the detioration of the plastic. I have never heard of a carseat expiring because of the "Webbing" material(same material used to make car's seatbelts). Does anyone have any info on that?:confused:

The main reasons carseats expire at such a "young" age is changing technology and risk that parts (including instructions) may become lost. See How old is too old for a safety seat? and the Expiration date entry in the Child Passenger Safety Technical Encyclopedia.
 

griffinmom

Moderator - CPST Instructor
While I appreciate the above links, they all appear to be on sites operated or sponsored by personal injury lawyers. It would be great IMO to see some stats about seatbelt failures from a more impartial source, if such a source actually exists. ;)

I agree with Jean 100% here. The websites of personal injury lawyers are not exactly bias free. Their websites are intended to attract new clients. If you don't look carefully, they appear to present facts, but they really represent the law firm's position.

I too would like to see an unbiased source of information about seatbelt failures, preferably in a peer reviewed journal or a well thought out government study. These sources cited above are about as far from unbiased as you can get!
 

Car-Seat.Org Facebook Group

Forum statistics

Threads
219,655
Messages
2,196,895
Members
13,530
Latest member
onehitko860

You must read your carseat and vehicle owner’s manual and understand any relevant state laws. These are the rules you must follow to restrain your children safely. All opinions at Car-Seat.Org are those of the individual author for informational purposes only, and do not necessarily reflect any policy or position of Carseat Media LLC. Car-Seat.Org makes no representations as to accuracy, completeness, currentness, suitability, or validity of any information on this site and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use. All information is provided on an as-is basis. If you are unsure about information provided to you, please visit a local certified technician. Before posting or using our website you must read and agree to our TERMS.

Graco is a Proud Sponsor of Car-Seat.Org! Britax is a Proud Sponsor of Car-Seat.Org! Nuna Baby is a Proud Sponsor of Car-Seat.Org!

Please  Support Car-Seat.Org  with your purchases of infant, convertible, combination and boosters seats from our premier sponsors above.
Shop travel systems, strollers and baby gear from Britax, Chicco, Clek, Combi, Evenflo, First Years, Graco, Maxi-Cosi, Nuna, Safety 1st, Diono & more! ©2001-2022 Carseat Media LLC

Top