Why not a Booster?

o_mom

New member
This doesn't make any sense, the crash forces would be on the shoulders not the neck.

Do you mean in a side impact crash? if a person is sitting outboard on the right side of the car and there is a side impact crash the seat belt would also be at the neck the same as in a 5-point. If the crash was on the other side there is now only the lap belt holding them back.

5-points protect much better in a side impact crash than a 3 point seat belt, they also protect better in roll overs.

He is talking about the strain that the head moving forward without the shoulders can put on the neck. However, top tethers (which are not available in many EU cars/seats) reduce these forces immensely. If you look at test results for a seat with and without the top tether, the Head Injury Criterion, which measures forces on the head and neck, is usually much lower for the tethered seat.
 
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skaterbabs

Well-known member
He is talking about the strain that the head moving forward without the shoulders can put on the neck. However, top tethers (which are not available in EU cars) reduce these forces immensely. If you look at test results for a seat with and without the top tether, the Head Injury Criterion, which measures forces on the head and neck, is usually much lower for the tethered seat.

Exactly. Testing in the United States does not show increased strain on the spinal column in FF harnessed seats. Since extended RF is rare here, and early booster use and harnessing to age 4 -6, if there were more spinal injuries to a harnessed (FF) child than a boostered child, we'd be seeing that data. The reality is, there is no injury data supporting the claim that a booster is safer than a harness for a child old enough to properly use either.
 

MissAllyLou

New member
As for kids sitting still, it's not a problem here. Why I don't know. My 4.5 year old sits just fine in his seat and doesn't play around. I think it's the job as a parent to teach kid to sit properly at this age but I know many disagree and have other views. The kids are certainly capable of this and I consider it a minor thing compared to all the other things that can be learned/taught.

I'm offended by your casualness on this. I have spent many HOURS working with Catherine, who is 6 years old, on sitting in a booster properly. Her mother has spent HOURS working with C on sitting in a booster properly. We've tried pulling over every time she's out of position, reminding her to sit up straight, locking her belt, rewards, etc. NOTHING worked. She's in a Nautilus, and will remain in the harness until she out grows it. It wasn't a case of her not knowing, or not being taught, how to sit in the booster properly. It's a case of her being free-spirited and unable to focus, completely, on sitting in a booster while she's riding in a car for an hour with her 2 fun sisters sitting next to her. That's great if your 4 year old can sit in his booster, by my 6 year old can't.
 

Lea_Ontario

Well-known member
As for kids sitting still, it's not a problem here. Why I don't know. My 4.5 year old sits just fine in his seat and doesn't play around. I think it's the job as a parent to teach kid to sit properly at this age but I know many disagree and have other views. The kids are certainly capable of this and I consider it a minor thing compared to all the other things that can be learned/taught.

Well, good for you. Want to come here and re-parent my 4-yr old and 6-yr old for me, as I'm apparently lacking in that particular skill.
 

Morganthe

New member
As for kids sitting still, it's not a problem here. Why I don't know. My 4.5 year old sits just fine in his seat and doesn't play around.

I think it's the job as a parent to teach kid to sit properly at this age but I know many disagree and have other views. The kids are certainly capable of this and I consider it a minor thing compared to all the other things that can be learned/taught.

My question is... and seriously, I'm not meaning to be rude at all.... What is the average length your son is in the car at one time? Do you drive long hours on a regular basis? Or is this on errands about town? How well does he manage for those long drives when he's tired of life?

I agree with the whole sitting properly for booster use. My dd uses one on occasion within city limits. She's great. But there is no possible way she would manage for a 4 hour one way road trip to Dallas or another grueling 2000 mile journey to New Jersey. It's just not a realistic expectation. :shrug-shoulders: So 5pt harness it is. :D

And for us, long distance driving is normal, unfortunately. I am so looking forward to everything comfortably being within a 3 hour drive. It's going to seem so quick. :thumbsup:
 

NannyMom

Well-known member
As for kids sitting still, it's not a problem here. Why I don't know. My 4.5 year old sits just fine in his seat and doesn't play around. I think it's the job as a parent to teach kid to sit properly at this age but I know many disagree and have other views. The kids are certainly capable of this and I consider it a minor thing compared to all the other things that can be learned/taught.
In all of Sweeden there's no problem with kids sitting properly in a booster? Or in all of your house there's no problem? Every child is different. Personally, I love it when a parent has that 1 "perfect" child and assumes it's because of their wonderful parenting. I've seen that all too often. THat's when I pray that their next child is the "problem" child :whistle:
 

keri1292

Well-known member
My 8yo can't use a booster for long trips. She just can't stay in position when she falls asleep. She ends up with her head on her rear-facing brothers lap. :eek: It might help if our belts locked at the shoulder, but they don't so she's happily harnessed.
 

Morganthe

New member
Why I Personally, I love it when a parent has that 1 "perfect" child and assumes it's because of their wonderful parenting. I've seen that all too often. THat's when I pray that their next child is the "problem" child :whistle:

LOL, too true. I know my dd is an anomally. She's actually calmer on long drives than at home. She LIKES the restrictions of remaining in one spot. But it's nothing I have done. It's all her nature. It's not the norm for a child her age.
And why I'm not dreading hours upon hours in on upcoming flights either. ;)

But I still wouldn't have put her full time in a booster at 3.5 years old. (She was abt 40.5"tall & ranged from 37-39lbs on any given day)

I was very concerned about submarining and all it would take was just one moment where she pulled the seatbelt out of place. I was a much more relaxed driver knowing she couldn't release herself. The Regent was a total PITA to purchase, but it's been well worth it for us both. :thumbsup:
 

mylittlet

Senior Community Member
Original Poster... You could buy a 5-point for under $70 that would likely work for your 3 1/2 year old. What seat is he out growing? It sounds like you need a higher harness. Different seats have different top slots. At only 32 pounds you could go with a 40 pound harness and get past 4 years of age easily.

For instance this Cosco High Back Booster has top slots of about 15 inches:
http://tinyurl.com/6rcuxj

Here is an Evenflo Booster that has top slots of about 17 inches:
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=4366138

In order to help you best pick a seat in your price range and for your situation we need more (vehicle, # of kids, what are all your seats). Sometimes a carseat shuffle can save you money now so you can buy a seat that fits your situation better in the long run.
 

Adventuredad

New member
Everyone is freaking out about this so let me respond and then I will go away. I'm not saying harnessed kids are unsafe, they are about as safe. Harnessed seats are great at times and not so great other times. Just like belt positioning boosters.

Please remember that research in this country does NOT support this point of view.

Just because it's not supported doesn't make it a bad idea. RF front seat installs, without airbags, are frowned upon in US but as safe as rear seat taken all actors into account.

Children under four AND 40 pounds should not be in a booster. It's not safe and in some states it's not legal.

Please read my post again. I said small children should not be a in a booster. I even highlighted this. I also said children under 4 here rarely sit in belt positioning boosters. Should I be even more clear?:mad:

Your child is more than 50% safer in a 5-point harness than in a booster seat,

That is not true at all and there is no research saying this. You're currently entitle to your opinion though. There are no crash tests comparing boosters with harnessed seat. Speak to someone experienced in crash safety and you'll find out why. It's to subjective, too complicated and the difference is likely to be relatively small.

I
f your son reaches over to retrieve a drink, a toy, a book, and a drunk driver runs a red light and plows into your car, the result will be catastrophic.

Not a fan of statistics, mathematics, or probability I suppose? It's certainly possible this could happen but you must realize someone is more likely to win Lotto twice and be hit by lightning in one day than this happening. If my child reaches over for a drink once during a 90 minute drive that's just fine. We're after all talking statistics here and the chance of something happening those 5 seconds are too small to even discuss.

This doesn't make any sense, the crash forces would be on the shoulders not the neck.

No. In a crash with harnessed child, the harness is holding the shoulder back. The only thing not fastened is the head. The shoulders are held back nicely by the harness which makes the head and neck go forward with incredible force. The shoulders certainly are under pressure but the neck takes much of the force.

He is talking about the strain that the head moving forward without the shoulders can put on the neck. However, top tethers (which are not available in many EU cars/seats) reduce these forces immensely. If you look at test results for a seat with and without the top tether, the Head Injury Criterion, which measures forces on the head and neck, is usually much lower for the tethered seat.

Good point. Forces may be reduced but are still immense for the neck of a young child.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wineaux
Your child is more than 50% safer in a 5-point harness than in a booster seat, .....
Source, please?

There is nothing trustworthy that confirms this of the simple reason tests are not done with belt positioning boosters and harnessed seats head to head. Both are certified and safe, more tests would be meaningless, extremely costly, and also far to subjective.

Exactly. Testing in the United States does not show increased strain on the spinal column in FF harnessed seats. Since extended RF is rare here, and early booster use and harnessing to age 4 -6, if there were more spinal injuries to a harnessed (FF) child than a boostered child, we'd be seeing that data. The reality is, there is no injury data supporting the claim that a booster is safer than a harness for a child old enough to properly use either.

Good point. As I mentioned, there are no head to head tests between the two. I've always said that leading experts in the field, who have been doing this for a very long time, recommend belt positioning boosters ahead of harnessed seat. But the immense safety record over here, using ONLY belt positioning boosters, suggest it's extremely safe But you must also keep in mind that their are other factors which are important except for pure crash results. One should not stare blindly at theoretical tests. More on that below.

I'm offended by your casualness on this.

Sorry if you're offended. I'm known for being straight to the point and also annoying (just read my siggy). I just consider this the job of a parent. If we consider how much are 5 year old learns, shouldn't we be able to teach them to sit relatively still for a while. This may sound offensive but I mean this in the most respectful way. Special need kids are another story and usually need a harness.

Well, good for you. Want to come here and re-parent my 4-yr old and 6-yr old for me, as I'm apparently lacking in that particular skill.

No need to be sarcastic. The point is all kids 4-8-ish sit in belt positioning boosters here and are not moving around like worms. Why I don't know. If you want to send your children over to me it would be my pleasure to work with them:whistle::love: Do they like Swedish meatballs?:love:

5-points protect much better in a side impact crash than a 3 point seat belt, they also protect better in roll overs.

Good point. I agree with you. Side impact is very dangerous but not so common. Rollovers are also low percentage.

My question is... and seriously, I'm not meaning to be rude at all.... What is the average length your son is in the car at one time? Do you drive long hours on a regular basis? Or is this on errands about town? How well does he manage for those long drives when he's tired of life?

My oldest is only 4.5 so I'm hoping he's not tired of life quite yet, although I can be very very boring:whistle: When we go for long drives we never drive more than 2 hours without a break. I think it's mean and too boring to have them sit longer than that without stretching. Others may think that's very long or short, I don't really know. I also have a 2 year old girl who is very impatient in her rf seat. She does not like long drives and would prefer to be without seat (big fat chance of that). I don't drive long hours on a regular basis.


In all of Sweden there's no problem with kids sitting properly in a booster? Or in all of your house there's no problem? Every child is different.

It's not a problem in my house but that is irrelevant. What's important is the big picture, the whole country. I'm sure there are kids who don't sit still all the time but it's not a worry. If kids couldn't sit still and belt positioning boosters were dangerous, they would not be used. It's that simple. Car seat safety is priority number one in this country, probably tied with family benefits, it's taken very seriously which the low amount of injuries and deaths clearly show.

I'm not naive, have been around the block a few times, and seen much of the world. I have a very realistic attitude towards parenting. I know one can get lucky with a child and it doesn't mean one is a perfect parent

Personally, I love it when a parent has that 1 "perfect" child and assumes it's because of their wonderful parenting. I've seen that all too often. That's when I pray that their next child is the "problem" child

Funny you should mention this. My 2-year old daughter is so full of energy she makes active twin seem like a picnic. She's not a "problem child" (yet?:whistle:) but she sure is a challenge. But considering all the other things she's learning stitting still will not be a problem.:twocents:

There seem to be many staring only at those youtube videos of crash tests believing that is the whole truth. Belt positioning booster have some other advantages as well. I would like to compare it with front seat install of a rf seat which is common here. Everyone knows the middle rear is safer looking at pure crash tests (about 35% safer I believe) but the front seat has other factors which makes it as safe as the rear. The boosters have other factors which are rarely mentioned but do make a difference.

Boosters are usually cheaper which means more people can afford them. They are also far easier to install making it more likely families use them. Easier to move is also a plus, it's more likely a proper seat is used when using a friend's car etc. These are just some things which are difficult to measure but do make a difference in the long run.

Another issue, which is very convincing to me, is the reputation and track record of the researchers. Kids are number one priority in this country to the government. Lots of resources are put into this. Researchers have more experience than anyone else, having tested and used car seats for 40+ years. With all this knowledge and focus to keep kids safe, wouldn't it be a little strange recommending and using belt positioning booster instead of harnessed seats since the latter is supposed to be "much safer"?

There is no agenda here. No lobby groups, no huge money to be made, no kick backs from manufacturers, no I-hate-harness-groups, etc. The safest possible seats are used and the records show this to be unbelievably successful. If harnessed seats would be "much safer" all things considered, you can be sure every single 5 year old in this country would be sitting in one.:twocents:
 

skaterbabs

Well-known member
The reality is that while Sweden insists that a booster is safer than a harness for 4-6 yos, ignording the data from other countries showing the reverse, other countries (including the US) freely admit that EXRF is safer than turning at the minimums.

There is NO injury data suporting the idea that a 4 yo child is *just as safe or safer* in a booster as in a harness. NONE. In fact, in the 4-6 age group, children in a five point harness are LESS likely to be injured.

As for the idea that the likelihood of being in a crash during that ONE TIME your child leans out of position is slim, statistics show in the US auto crashes are the #1 cause of unintentional injury and death for children ages 3-up. (Through adulthood, as a matter of fact.) Since being in the car is the single most risky thing my children will do in a given day, I'm not willing to tke that risk.
 

emandbri

Well-known member
He is talking about the strain that the head moving forward without the shoulders can put on the neck. However, top tethers (which are not available in many EU cars/seats) reduce these forces immensely. If you look at test results for a seat with and without the top tether, the Head Injury Criterion, which measures forces on the head and neck, is usually much lower for the tethered seat.

This still isn't making sense to me if the head moving without the rest of the body really is dangerous it would be more so when a child is younger and the head is bigger in proportion to the body.

Do race car drivers and pilots have this problem of the head moving without the rest of the body?

Logically it seems to me we would all be safer if we were in a 5-point harness and therefor it seems to make sense to me that we should keep kids in a harness as long as we can.
 

Morganthe

New member
My oldest is only 4.5 so I'm hoping he's not tired of life quite yet, although I can be very very boring:whistle: When we go for long drives we never drive more than 2 hours without a break. I think it's mean and too boring to have them sit longer than that without stretching.

Others may think that's very long or short, I don't really know. I also have a 2 year old girl who is very impatient in her rf seat. She does not like long drives and would prefer to be without seat (big fat chance of that). I don't drive long hours on a regular basis.
Nope not jumping on you at all.
LOL -- "tired of life" catchall phrase just meant weary of sitting, sleeping, reading, playing -- WANT OUT NOW! situation ;)

You have very different driving conditions that what I deal with regularly. It takes less than 10 minutes to drive out of this city. 2 hours down the roadway, we're still in the middle of nowhere with nothing appropriate to take breaks. East, west, north, south.... It's as if I"m at Tatooine at times. :p
The first reasonable stop is a about 3 hours. DD's usually still humming away & playing. We've passed it up quite a few times.
Her 'comfort zone' is about 4-5 HOURS! That's when she's had enough and ready for lunch break. I'm quite ready by then, too. :p

She's very similar to my dh if he's not drinking coffee like it's going out of style. Don't disturb the zen between points -- get as far down the road as humanly possible. Since birth, as long as we avoid the magical 5pm witching hour, she doesn't mind the long time in the car. It's her nature. Can't mess with it.

Meanwhile, I don't have to worry about her hunching or reaching or straightening up with a loose belt. She's secure and content in her Barcalounger. I wouldn't be anywhere near as relaxed if she was in a booster seat. It's just not an option for these long distance driving conditions.

Perhaps next year. Don't know. I think it's much more of a hassle dealing with a-tricky-reach-over & grab-the seatbelt to secure all the time, than a quick snap for the 5pt. :shrug-shoulders:

BTW -- Swedish meatballs are da bomb! :D I'll be happy when we can get a regular 'fix' again.
 

LISmama810

Admin - CPS Technician
This still isn't making sense to me if the head moving without the rest of the body really is dangerous it would be more so when a child is younger and the head is bigger in proportion to the body.

It does sort of make sense to me. If the rest of the body doesn't move, the head is thrust forward on it's own, increasing the neck loads. By how much? I don't know. Is it worse than an out-of-position kid submarining under the belt? Probably not. I'm just saying I do see some validity to the argument, but until I see some side-by-side comparisons, I can't say how significant it is. (My kid will still be harnessed for quite a while.)

Anyway, yeah the big-headed littler kids would probably be in more danger from it, which is even more reason to keep them RF as long as possible.

Do race car drivers and pilots have this problem of the head moving without the rest of the body?

I thought I read something about race car drivers having their helmet strapped in too. I have no idea if that's true or not.
 

o_mom

New member
This still isn't making sense to me if the head moving without the rest of the body really is dangerous it would be more so when a child is younger and the head is bigger in proportion to the body.

Do race car drivers and pilots have this problem of the head moving without the rest of the body?

Logically it seems to me we would all be safer if we were in a 5-point harness and therefor it seems to make sense to me that we should keep kids in a harness as long as we can.

You are exactly right - it is more dangerous for younger kids and can lead to internal decapatation if the forces are too severe. That is the reasoning behind the SafeStop on the Radian and the energy absorbing tethers on new Britax seats. Any tether is going to decrease the energy transferred to the spine.

Racecar drivers in some sports have tethers on the top of their helmets to mitigate this, but it is not as big of a concern for adults where the head is proportionally smaller compared to the body and the spinal column is more developed.

What is missing here is something that shows a booster to be better at reducing neck forces compared to a harnessed seat. AD has some "sources" in Sweden who think it does, but we have no data to go on. As well, their data will be based on EU seats without tethers. The NHTSA compliance testing shows a tethered seat does better than an untethered seat, but there is no drastic reduction in HIC for boosters with small children (they test with 3 and 6 yo dummies). Some of the tethered 5 pt harnessed seats do far better than many of the boosters.
 

joolsplus3

Admin - CPS Technician
This still isn't making sense to me if the head moving without the rest of the body really is dangerous it would be more so when a child is younger and the head is bigger in proportion to the body.

Do race car drivers and pilots have this problem of the head moving without the rest of the body?

Logically it seems to me we would all be safer if we were in a 5-point harness and therefor it seems to make sense to me that we should keep kids in a harness as long as we can.

Emily, I can't wrap my head around this, either. One would think that the proportionately larger heads of children age 1-4 and harnessed in this country and Europe and Canada and Australia would be at HUGE risk if this were the case, yet the Swedish studies (in Swedish...) seem to indicate that the heavier head of older childhood/adulthood, despite being proportionately much smaller, is at some greater risk of neck injury. I have yet to see a study, if Sweden thinks this is earth shattering life saving information, I wish they'd share it :whistle:. Fact is, yes, racecar drivers use harnesses, and they also have HANS devices to hold their heads back, because they are going MUCH FASTER than people regular cars. We keep learning from racecars incredible safety record, the devices and ways to keep safe in our every day cars...I'm more inclined to follow their lead than Sweden's in this case (well, except for rearfacing, I'd love to see every kid rearfacing to 4 or 5!).

Anyway, the op was asking about a 3.5 yo...not even a 4 yo or a 5 yo...the older the kid gets, the more booster v. harness does equal out in safety for frontal crashes. Side impacts kill a huge number of kids (about a quarter of all deaths in cars, untold hundreds of thousands of injuries), rollovers account for a quarter of all age deaths...I think they ARE an important factor for those of us with SUV's and no side curtain airbags... harnesses are better in those cases, and if you can afford a larger harnessed seat for older kids, that's better than a booster, particularly in those types of vehicles, which millions of Americans own. I'm sure a 3.5 yo sitting alone in the back of a solid car with good side impact ratings and low rollover risk is extremely safe..but that's a fairly small number of kids in this country, best to give advice that is potentially safest in the most types of cars for the largest numbers of families.
 

LISmama810

Admin - CPS Technician
Emily, I can't wrap my head around this, either. One would think that the proportionately larger heads of children age 1-4 and harnessed in this country and Europe and Canada and Australia would be at HUGE risk if this were the case, yet the Swedish studies (in Swedish...) seem to indicate that the heavier head of older childhood/adulthood, despite being proportionately much smaller, is at some greater risk of neck injury.

But kids in this country ARE at huge risk being FF, especially the younger they are, specifically because of this (internal decapitation). Sweden probably doesn't have studies on younger kids in boosters because their kids are still RF until 4.

I'm by NO MEANS advocating putting small children in booster seats. Maturity is a huge factor. But say there's a 5-year-old who can sit well in a booster. Is that kid automatically safer in a harnessed seat? I don't know. I'd probably keep mine in a harness, but I can't say the whole neck-load thing hasn't crossed my mind, even before threads like this.
 

joolsplus3

Admin - CPS Technician
But kids in this country ARE at huge risk being FF, especially the younger they are, specifically because of this (internal decapitation). Sweden probably doesn't have studies on younger kids in boosters because their kids are still RF until 4.

I'm by NO MEANS advocating putting small children in booster seats. Maturity is a huge factor. But say there's a 5-year-old who can sit well in a booster. Is that kid automatically safer in a harnessed seat? I don't know. I'd probably keep mine in a harness, but I can't say the whole neck-load thing hasn't crossed my mind, even before threads like this.

It's rare, though, kids aren't just getting internally decapitated by the thousands because they are harnessed FF http://parenting.ivillage.com/baby/bsafety/0,,9r5v-4,00.html
"In the research and accident review(2) that I did a few years ago, the data seemed to break at about 12 months between severe consequences and more moderate consequences for the admittedly rare events of injury to young children facing forward that we were able to identify. One year old is also a nice benchmark, and the shift to that benchmark in the last few years has kept many kids in a safer environment longer and has probably saved some lives, some kids from paralysis and some parents from terrible grief."
 

Kat_Momof3

New member
okay... can we stop arguing this point right now? The point on this thread should be that EVERYONE agrees that a child under 4yrs old/under 40lbs has no place in a booster seat.

to bring Adventuredad's point into it, if we lived in sweden, the child would still be REARFACING... so no way ready for a booster.

And yes, harnessed seats can be expensive, which is why I (along with many others on this board) have been thrilled to FINALLY see (in our lifetimes, no less) combination seats that are great harnessed seats AND great booster seats.

To reduce head excursion mentioned, everyone needs to top tether their seat!
 

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