best car seat?

Unregistered · Mar 14, 2003

People keep telling me that Britax is the safest seat. I can't find any data to support this (I am a scientist, so data is what i need-lol!). Everything I read on aap, nhtsa, iihs, and even other countries data(euromcap,ancap) indicates that all seats provide excellent protection and that vehicle design is actually most critical. I even found some side impact stuff from nhtsa that says the American seats do as well as the European seats. Also it seems that a Century seat (the Accel I believe) was a top pick in Eruope or Australia (can't remember which at the moment) It seems britax owners love their seats and they are easy to use, but I am wondering if the extra cost is related to safety or ease of use? On one of the nhtsa pages it says that evenflo and britax representatives met with nhtsa and said the higher the cost the more ease of use features. They didn't mention safety. Am I missing something? Thanks.

carseatmom · Mar 14, 2003

Britax goes above and beyond to say the least. There seats offer MORE safety features then ANY other seat on the market in the US (BTW in other countries Britax goes under different names. Aust. is Safe N' Sound, and Roman in Europe, they are the top manufacture in those counties too).

They have features like EPS foam (like what is in bike helmets) to absorb shock, rear-facing tether (ONLY offered by Britax), built in lock offs (only offered by Britax), one pull harness adjuster (on the Roundabout), and more. The ease of use to me is what makes them even better! It is by far the easiest seat I have EVER used or installed (and I've used a lot of seats over the years).

So IMO its both safety and ease of use that makes them worth the extra money

Jen E mom to Baylee, Austin and EDD 9-3-03...CPS Tech!

SafeDad · Mar 15, 2003

I agree with Jen-

Used properly, almost any current model is quite safe. While motor vehicle crashes are the #1 cause of fatal injury for children, most of these injuries are from non-use or misuse of restraints.

I have never sear real statistics showing differences from one model to the next, given correct use. Now and then, crash tests results may be found, though they are often questionable for various reasons. Usually, the ratings can't be correlated to a risk of injury, or the fit with the dummy and test bench may not reflect your fit with your child and vehicle.

I agree with Jen. Buy a model that fits your child and vehicle, and one that has enough ease of use features so that you will use it correctly every time

That, of course, varies from one parent to the next!

Unregistered · Mar 15, 2003

Thanks I was fairly certain that there was no data to support one seat being any better in terms of real crashes. In Europe btw Britax goes as Romer not Roman. I have been to their site I know all the various names they go by. I have read through all the Euro NCAP and ANCAP stuff that is available on the web. I haven't seen anything there either that concludes Britax under any name is the best. Seems to me that in those countries Britax is like Cosco or Graco in the US. Thanks again I was asking for actual data, and I guess if you guys don't know of it may just not be available.

SafeDad · Mar 15, 2003

Hi Again-

It's not that we don't know. It's that such data either does not exist, or is not in the public domain. Other than the ECE and Consumer Reports crash testing, you are unlikely to find much comparative data at all. I have searched for similar data, too, and if you do find something I would greatly appreciate it if you would return and post it. Incidentally, the next Consumer Reports review is due next month...

My daughter rides in a Britax Roundabout and a Cosco Triad. My son in a Britax Husky and Fisher Price Futura. I am satisfied they are very safe in any of them, as they all fit very well.

joolsplus3 · Mar 15, 2003

I'm wondering if you've seen the Austrian child seat crash tests and ratings? http://216.239.35.120/translate_c?h...ev=/search?q=recaro+start&start=40&hl=en&sa=N (if you search around on the page, they have the 2001 and 2000 ratings too). While the Google translation is less than perfect, it does give a good general overview and the crash test videos are interesting to watch. Also, the NHTSA Compliance testing information is here http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/testing/comply/fmvss213/index.html (Obviously, neither of these sources offer the definitive answer you're seeking, but they do "add something to the mix" when doing thorough research).
Now, as for personal experience, I put off buying a Britax seat for 5 years, and in the meantime bought about a dozen other seats for my 2 kids....I was certainly not afraid for their safety in these seats, and I have always made a concerted effort to install them "rock solid" in all of our vehicles and made sure the harnesses were tight and not twisted. But when I finally did purchase a Britax (Marathon), I could not have been more amazed at the extreme ease with which I could install it, the substantial feel of the harness straps, and the very obviously high quality construction, including much more padding in the seat and the cover, which serves to keep my kids more comfortable (safer? maybe not directly...but anything to reduce driver distraction will minimize risks to everyone in the car).

SafeDad · Mar 15, 2003

More on test results

Thanks for the links, Julie! I'm always a bit of a coward when it comes to posting them, since they can sometimes be misinterpreted. For example, I know a number of parents who would only buy those child seats that received the highest "crash protection" score in a Consumer Reports review, despite many other important factors regarding the selection of a new child seat. So, in the interest of adding another one to the mix, here is the most recent CR review from last year:

http://www.consumerreports.org/main/detail.jsp?CONTENT<>cnt_id=82391

Parents who visit these links should take them with a grain of salt. The NHTSA tests are not necessarily indicative of the performance of final versions of car seats being sold at retail. ALL seats sold at retail must meet or exceed the standards in these tests to earn the FMVSS comforming sticker.

And again, what works well with a dummy on a test sled may not work well with your child, in your vehicle. Plus, crash test results are not correlated to real-world injury rates. As I said before, we do know that most injuries result from children who ride without a child restraint, or in one that is not properly installed or used. "Graduating" too soon from one type of restraint to another can also be a problem (i.e. rear-facing to front-facing, front-facing to booster, or booster to seatbelt). Differences between models and brands that are correctly used are likely to be fairly small, though there can certainly be a few exceptions.

Unregistered · Mar 15, 2003

I didn't mean to imply you didn't know something. What I meant was that if you were unable to find such information, than neither would I. Sorry if I didn't get that across. I have looked at those pages that you all listed, and what I have concluded is that no seat performs best in all simulated crash tests, in all measurements, etc. One seat perofms better here, another there. All the real world data that I have found indicats that at least 50% of injuries are in kids completely unrestrained, and the majority of the rest are restrained improperly. Obviously not all accidents are survivable even if perfectly restrained. I was just wondering if there was any infomration that refutes my conclusion. I have spoken to 11 techs in my state over the last year or so, and have been given many seat recommendations, although never Britax seats-which was quite suprising. I have no problem spending any amount of money for a car seat, and actually am planning on buying two Marathons within the next few months. I like them due to the high height and weight limits, but I don't believe that Britax seats necessarily are safer or perform better than a car seat that costs $50 from the few hundred hours I have spent researching seats. As far as ease of use, perhaps I have just been lucky in that I have seats that I love and wouldn't change (except maybe increase the height and weight parameters). In my old car I felt the Roundabout fit poorly and compromised my ability to see out the rear window, and therefore was unsafe. It was a nice seat-don't get me wrong, I guess being as analytical as I am I need hard data. I guess what I am looking for either is inaccessible or does not exist. I do not have any concerns that my children aren't strapped into Britax seats though. Again, sorry if I implied something I did not mean. Thank you for the information. It is appreciated.

Unregistered · Mar 15, 2003

I forgot to mention that although the Britax page calls the seats Romer-apparently in Austria they call them Roman? Perhaps it is translation issue. Sorry for my mistake. I had looked at Romer, teut (sp?) don't remember the whole thing, steelcraft, etc. I really never noticed that this somehow translated to Roman. So I apologize for my mistake. perhaps I am naive, but I think all the seats sold in the US provide excellent protection to children. I have worked with lots of poor families in my line of work, and to think that their children can't be as well protected as the children of the rich or at least more midle-class families seemed crazy to me. Safety should be a right not a privilege, and I would hope the manufactures think the same way. AGain, thanks for your input.

UlrikeDG · Mar 15, 2003

Unregistered said:
I forgot to mention that although the Britax page calls the seats Romer-apparently in Austria they call them Roman? Perhaps it is translation issue. Sorry for my mistake. I had looked at Romer, teut (sp?) don't remember the whole thing, steelcraft, etc. I really never noticed that this somehow translated to Roman...

That's a translation issue. I live in Germany and speak (some) German. The German company is Roemer or RÃ¶mer, and Austria imports its "Britax" seats from RÃ¶mer.

The you are correct that the most critical factor in protecting your child is the (proper) use of a child safety seat. Some seats have features which make them easier to use properly or which make them more appealing for one reason or another. The "best" seat is the one that fits your child, fits your vehicle and which will be used properly each and every trip.

Unregistered · Mar 15, 2003

Thank you Ulrike. I guess from my novice point of view you see Consumer Reports say Fisher Price most recently, the UK data liked a century Seat best, some Austrian data that likes a britax best and you have to wonder not only what to believe, but who if any one is correct? And then if you can conclude anything from that you have to really wonder if the differences are relevent in the real world. Thanks again, and have a nice day.

joolsplus3 · Mar 15, 2003

What would be the most definitive, in my humble opinion, is if there were a database with information on every crash and every injury sustained on every occupant. Then we would really be able to "see" not only the safest seats, but the safest cars, the safest driving conditions, the safest kind of road. The work being done in this field is certainly getting more comprehensive and being evaluated more closely than it was, say, before computers, but it still has a long way to go.
For an anecdotal bit of evidence, I spoke with a woman at my child's preschool, who's car was totalled by a red-light-running drunk driver (and that driver's passenger was killed in the crash). My friend and her family, including a 3 year old in an overhead shield seat, and an infant in an infant seat, were all unharmed, fortunately. *I* was the one who told her that her carseats needed replacing, weeks after the crash. While all the evidence relating to the crash was no doubt documented almost fully, they had neglected to get any information on the seats that HAD protected the children in the crash. Until accurate seat information, including styles, model numbers, inspection for proper installation of the seat and any other related info is collected for EVERY crash, then it will be impossible to know which seat is unequivocally the "safest" seat. However, there are more general data, as you've found, that support ANY seat as much, much safer than no seat....it's just that there's nothing yet to specifically support one seat over another. (and if there were, I know everyon HERE would have a link to that study

)

UlrikeDG · Mar 15, 2003

Your "novice" point of view has come up with some very good points.

Crash test data is not necessarily relevant in real life crashes. One seat manufacturer gave the example of a rope around the child's neck. It will decrease head excursion numbers significantly, but will it increase the protection of the child?

Britax seats (and the Evenflo Triumph & Comet) have EPS foam which should help protect the child's head. However, it may also increase head excursion numbers (the head will start out slightly farther forward than if the seat did not have the added layer of foam). US crash tests don't measure the impact of the child's head on the seat, but they do measure head excursion. We can't quantify the theoretical benefits of EPS foam vs the small increase in head excursion. As a parent, I've concluded that I prefer to have a seat with foam for my children.

Some German/Austrian and British seats are now being manufactured with "Side Impact Protection." I can only assume this is due, at least in part, to the ADAC/Ã–AMTC crash tests, which showed parents how inadequate many seats (especially boosters) were in a side impact collision. The crash test videos on the Ã–AMTC site were one of the biggest factors in my decision to keep my 40 lb, almost-5-year-old son in a seat with a 5 point harness (the Britax Marathon), rather than moving him to a belt positioning booster. I don't have the numbers to justify my decision, but the potential for injury if his head were to strike the interior of the vehicle during a side impact collision seems great enough in my Saturn SW2 that I wanted the extra, theoretical protection that a harnessed seat provides.

I can only take the information I have and try to make the best decision for my children based on that information, even when I don't have solid data and statistics to back me up. (And trust me, I really would prefer to know the numbers and just go with whatever stacks the odds in my favor.)

Unregistered · Mar 15, 2003

I couldn't agree more. I too have seats with EPS foam. As I said, I too plan on getting a marathon as my kids outgow their current convertibles. I have a standing concern with the lack of wings on boosters-although I have reveiwed both EuroNCAP and NHTSA side impact data, and sadly the seats don't really seem to provide as much protection as they should. Do I think EPS foam helps? Honestly, I don't know, but I don't think it can hurt either. But, do I think it is needed to protect a child-no I don't. I also don't worry too much about getting into an accident. I just like to know that my kids are as safe as I can make them while in the car. More than that none of us can do. I would love to see the data described above, but I don't imagine we will get in in the form that we would love to see. Oh well. Have a nice day/evening depending on where you all are.

SafeDad · Mar 15, 2003

One more comment-

At the Lifesavers conference last week, there were a few discussions on side impacts, child restraints, side airbags and the overall risk. I came away with the feeling that harnessed carseats do fairly well in side impacts. I would definitely prefer a high back booster with some side protection compared to a no-back model if my child was in an outboard seating position.

Dynamic side impact testing and child restraint ratings will appear in the USA soon as they have been mandated.

Unregistered · Mar 16, 2003

Thanks everyone for the great discussion. I am too analytical sometimes-I guess both an advantage and disadvantage. I enjoy reading all the information you are able to provide. It will be interesting to see the data Darren referred to, but I imagine it won't be relevent to every car. It would be nice if there was some way that car manufactures could do safety testing in conjunction with child restraint manufactures to demonstrate which seats work best in which vehicles. I have seen some EuroNCAP stuff like that, and it is great. It would make life a lot easier for parents! I still have every intention of getting a marathon (or a Wizard if they are out in time) within 2-4 months, and another when my younger child outgrows her FPSE. Unless of course something better comes along. I would like to see them harnessed as long as possible! I am a huge fan of auto racing and always say I too would like to have a 5 pt harness as do the Nascar, Indy, etc drivers!

BTW Darren-it is funny that people will only buy the CR number 1 seat-if you look at their data all the seats fell within the very good or excellent range except one that got a good. I had my FP seats before that data was released, and I must admit it made me feel good that the seats performed well. I was a bit weary of buying a seat made by a toy company, but it came highly recommended by a few CPS techs and lots of friends who had them.

SafeDad · Mar 16, 2003

Even more comments-

With CR, I'm not even talking about their overall rating bar. Specifically, I know a number of parents that would only buy ones that had the very best "full red circle" rating in the crash protection score. Unfortunately, they give absolutely no information about how much better a model with a "full red circle" performed than one with a half red or empty circle:-(

Nissan has a great new program to check the fit of various child seats in their cars. It's new, and not based on crash testing, but it IS a start:

http://www.nissanusa.com/owning/ChildSafetyItems/0,1713,51119|453,00.html

Darren

Unregistered · Mar 16, 2003

Yes-you have to wonder with CR. It doesn't apeear that there is a lot of difference. Compare for example the RA with the Century 1000. The Century got a better infant rating, the same toddler with tether rating, a better toddler without tether, a worse ease of use and the same fit to vehicle, yet the RA got a slightly overall mark. Why? Is it because teh 1000 only goes to 22 lbs rf? Is it because they are weighting ease of use more than protection? Ease of use is very important, as is protection. Of course excellent protection is irrelevent if you don't use the seat right. It is certainly a challange to figure out.

On a side note, you probably don't hear news from New England, but just yesterday 3 kids-age 6, 9 and 11 were killed in a horrible crash in MA. THey were all completely unrestrained in the cargo area of a 5 passenger SUV. A 9 month old was in an infant seat, although apparently not buckled in correctly but survived, as did two other kids who may or may not have been buckled in and 2 unrestrained adults who were injured. Big suprise-they were traveling in excess of 85 mph. It makes me ill that parents do this despite all the info out there. Thanks again for your excellent insight!

Unregistered · Mar 16, 2003

I had book-marked this page a while ago, with hopes of reading it. I finally did, and it has a lot of the info I was requesting, and actually seems to complicate matters further. It looks like there is a considerable amount of inter-vehicle variability in performance. The good news is the most, if not all seats do seem to pass with flying colors. It seems to me that manufacturers are changing things to receive a good mark! Like adding a 4th row of harness slots, attaching a pocket for the manual to the seat cover and adding pictures of real people to the amnuals. I was spoiled by FP because the pocket for the manual is on my yr2000 model seat covers, and there are real pictures in the manual. I didn't realize this was not the standard. Live and learn as they say. Have a nice night/day/whatever!

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/rulings/CRS-Rate/Index.html#N_9_

SafeDad · Mar 16, 2003

As with the other testing-

Again, I want to know how these results correlate to a risk of injury. Is 337 Head Injruy Criterion and 41 G's of chest deceleration a significantly higher real-world risk than 261 and 35, respectively?

NHTSA did do this to some extent with their NCAP ratings, so hopefully their star ratings on child seats will be similar. Ultimately, can you even base real world risk on the fit of a crash test dummy or test sled, compared to a real child or vehicle?

For that reason, most advocates prefer to emphasise ease-of-use and proper use, rather than test performance.

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