winter driving/snow tires

[granolamama]

I need some info about winter driving and snow tires. This is our 2nd winter in Colorado after being in a sunny climate for several years. I have driven in the snow before, since we used to live in Utah, but it's been awhile. Last winter we didn't get much snow, so I had no problems, but today I had to go somewhere and had an extremely difficult time getting up my driveway when I got home. (My driveway is not flat, but it's not steep either.)

So, I'm wondering if I need snow tires for my car? It's a 2005 Honda Odyssey. Do snow tires help in this kind of situation? I already have anti-lock breaks and electonic stability control, but I just couldn't get enough traction to get up my driveway. Are snow tires left on until late spring, or do you have to change them out frequently? Any snow tire or winter driving tips would be appreciated. The tires on my car now are Michelin Energy LX4, Radial XSE, 235/65R16, 103T M+S tubeless. (I don't know what all of that means, so I'm not sure which of those things I needed to include.)

I tried to do a search on the odyclub forum, but it was too much information. Since I don't know a lot about tires, and especially not about snow tires, I need to start with the basics.

Thanks,
Helen

[lovinwaves]

I'm sure Darren will reply here in a little bit, but I also have an '05 Odyssey. I don't know what your winter's are like but here where I live they *can* be brutal. We just had about 16" of snow, and the Ody does fine with All season tires on it. That is probably what your Ody came with. We also had an ice storm and we have a somewhat steep driveway. When you are in that situation that you were in try putting the gear shift in the lowest position, turn off your overdrive, and do some power braking if you need to(don't recommend all the time), and of course take it nice and slow. Maybe snow tires would help you, but the cost keeps me away.

[Jeanum]

I have very similar Michelin all season tires on my '05 Sienna and haven't had much difficulty in the snow here in Michigan. Our street can go unplowed for a long time and our driveway slopes down toward the street. But then last winter was relatively mild and so far we haven't had much snow this winter either. And I'm a SAHM who just doesn't go out in the really bad snowstorms if I can avoid it, lol.

Is it possible you have a lot of miles on your original tires already? A newer set of all seasons with unworn treads might help. My Dad used to have a set of snow tires he would put on every winter before he retired, but he readily admits that all seasons are adequate for most drivers unless you have a long commute or a job where you have to drive no matter what the roads are like. If you have to drive in super snowy conditions on a more regular basis, I would consider getting another set of wheel rims with snow tires available from tire stores and places like the tirerack.com and them have them mounted on your vehicle at a local tire store. The trick is to have the storage space in your garage/basement for your regular all season tires and their rims and vice versa for the snow tires and rims in the winter, and to have them swapped at the start of winter and swapped back in the spring. You can drive with snow tires on clear roads, too, but your handling will suffer some, and I believe the snow tires also will wear out more quickly. Blizzaks are supposed to be pretty good, but I'm sure Darren has more Odyssey specific advice. :)

[beeman]

Remember, ABS is only as good as the tires under it. All the ABS does is keep the wheels from locking up, and if you have more traction, the wheels won't lock up as quick, therefore ABS won't kick in as quick, giving you more braking power and a shorter stopping distance. I live in Saskatchewan, so snow and icy roads are very common. Last winter I ran all seasons on my 1/2 ton ford, and they did do the trick, but this winter I put winter tires on, and they do make a huge difference. You think that all seasons will work until you use the winter tires. I have my all seasons on a seperate set of rims, like Jean suggested, that I got at the Auto-wreckers for $40 (so they were relatively cheap). That way I can switch back myself in the spring. Definately put winter tires on your Ody, and make sure to leave a good distance between you and the next driver, and allow lots of time to stop. A slippery intersection can catch you by surprise. Safe driving

[granolamama]

When you are in that situation that you were in try putting the gear shift in the lowest position, turn off your overdrive, and do some power braking if you need to(don't recommend all the time), and of course take it nice and slow. Maybe snow tires would help you, but the cost keeps me away.

I did try using 2nd and 1st gear, but I didn't know I had to turn off the overdrive. I don't know what power braking is. We've had at least a foot of snow so far; the projection is 20" by tomorrow afternoon, which I think qualifies as a BIG STORM around here (I'm not in the mountains). One neighbor in a Suburban made it up her driveway after she shoveled it, and another in what looked like a Honda Civic just gave up and parked on the street.

Thanks.

[granolamama]

And I'm a SAHM who just doesn't go out in the really bad snowstorms if I can avoid it, lol.

Normally I don't either, but I had an appointment this morning.

Is it possible you have a lot of miles on your original tires already? A newer set of all seasons with unworn treads might help.

Kind of doubtful, since we've put less than 15,000 miles on that car, but I'll have my husband check the tread when he gets home.

Thanks.

[granolamama]

A slippery intersection can catch you by surprise. Safe driving

Thanks, Beeman. I have been noticing that it can be very tricky to get enough umph to get going over the snow and into the intersection, without giving it too much gas and having less than optimal traction once I'm out in the intersection.

[lovinwaves]

My '05 Ody has 16,000miles on it and the tires are just perfect, so I'm sure yours are to. Have your DH check though. Darren will be on here soon I'm sure to give you some more advice....:)

[granolamama]

Okay, I am jealous now. I really hate my husband's truck for a number of reasons ('92 or '93 Dodge Dakota), but he just got home, and had no problems at all getting up the driveway through 18-24 inches of snow. He just plowed through it like it was nothing!

[lovinwaves]

Okay, I am jealous now. I really hate my husband's truck for a number of reasons ('92 or '93 Dodge Dakota), but he just got home, and had no problems at all getting up the driveway through 18-24 inches of snow. He just plowed through it like it was nothing!

Yes, but he doesn't seat eight. Have a luxurious ride. Have sliding doors. etc..

[dvmvail]

Hi Granolamama -- I live in Vail and have been watching the storm all day. I have two friends who aren't going anywhere for christmas since their flights got canceled tomorrow!

My husband and I both have snow tires for our car -- of course we get tons of snow up here in the mountains. He has studded and I have studless. Yes, they are definately an extra expense and an extra pain to store, but personally I think they do perform better than a regular all-season tire. The studded ones have -- well, studs and they help to grip, especially on the ice. I've never had a problem with studded tires.

No tire manufacturer made studded snow tires in the size I needed for my ford freestyle so I went with studless and I have been very happy with their performance (combined with my awd). Last year we had a record amount of snow (over 400 inches -- snowpacked roads for over 2 weeks at a time) and I never had a slip. The studless snowtires (and I believe studded as well) are made from a different rubber than regular tires. They allow for more traction in the cold, snow and ice.

Snow tires will probably cost you about $600 -- but they will also last you for several years (and extend the life of your regular tires). I use my snow tires from about November to April -- they do ride differently than a regular tire and the studded ones can be noisy.

I think some of the choice of whether or not snow tires are worth the investment (since it sounds like you've already got lots of life left on your all-season tires) may kind of come down to your lifestyle ect... do you have to get to work or your kids school every single day no matter the weather...how much driving do you do, how far, ect....

My husband's summer tires are these newer ones rated to 80,000 miles (the only tire you'll ever need....) I will tell you they are fantastic tires, again..expensive!.....but they wear fantastic he's got at least 40,000 miles on them and they show very little wear...they also perform great in the rain and the snow. The only reason he puts the studded tire on in the winter is we both used to have the same car, I sold mine and we kept the snow tires and he just uses them because we have them.

I would also say, that today's snow in denver is the exception-not the rule (of course you probably already know that, so no offense intended) and when they implement a chain-law restriction for the metro area -- you know its got to be bad.

I hope some of that helps anyway, stay warm and dry, and enjoy the snow day tomorrow!

[WESTMICHIGANLEO]

I mentioned in one of my first posts that I am a huge fan of the Bridgestone Blizzaks Snow tires. I can guarantee that my wife's vehicles will always have them on them.

Her car that we just replaced had a 2nd set of wheels w/ them on them, and I was very good about changing them according to the weather. They have lasted more than 3 years, and I'm sure are good for at least 1 more. Our old driveway used to give her problems if it wasn't cleared. Once she had the Blizzaks on it, she always made it up to the garage on the first try. Prior to that, I spent many days dealing w/ a stuck car in the drive.

While on very slick roads, you can feel the difference. With her all seasons (Newer Good Year Assurance Triple Treads), the car handled like most cars. When we put the Blizzaks on it, you can really feel the difference in handling, and when braking you can feel the car trying to grab the road.

as you can see, I love them!!!!!!

We have the WS-50 model and bought them from WWW.TIRERACK.COM for a very reasonable price (less than $500) mounted, balanced, and shipped to our door via UPS.

[Dillipop]

When I lived in Utah, I had studded snow tires on my honda civic. Although I lived in the valley (cache valley in northern Utah), I drove over a mountain pass every weekend to get to church. My aunt and uncle lived outside of Park City in the mountains and the studded tires were a must to get to their house and into their driveway. Before I got the tires, I would slip around a bit, after I had no slipping.

If you can't get into your own driveway, winter tires may be well worth it for you to purchase. I think they can really make a difference in traction to get up those little hills.

[granolamama]

Thanks for the advice, dvmvail. What kind of all-season tires does your husband have? That would be something to keep in mind for next time I need new tires. Even though I realize this current storm qualifies as a BIG SNOW, I got stuck when it was still 10am Wed, and my drive way probably had only 4" of snow on it. Do you know if Boulder county is likely to get that amount of snow with any regularity? I homeschool, so I don't usually have to go out in the snow if I don't want to, but I'd at least like to be able to get up my own driveway. :o

This is definitely one wild storm for a southern California girl! :D Our neighborhood street has at least 2 feet of snow on it and isn't even on the city's snow removal plan, and our backyard has snow drifts up to the top of the fence. I think if my husband decides to go in to work today, I'll have to hide his car keys. :p

[dvmvail]

Granolamama: Not trying to ignore your questions -- we've been busy getting ready for Christmas and kids have been out of school so it always makes it a bit more hectic. Yes, I would say it's common for Boulder County to get 4 inches of snow in storm, so if the money is in your budget, perhaps snow tires are a good idea .... especially if it buys you peace of mind and the ability to head out when you want without worrying about getting stuck with kids in the car!!! I will ask my husband what the brand is on his tires -- and get back to you...like I said earlier, they have awesome tread, if we didn't happen to have a spare set of snow tires, I seriously doubt we would buy an extra set, they just really have performed that well on his Subaru.

Have a great week and Happy Holidays (I'll send you a PM with the brand of the tires)

[CPSDarren]

Sounds like you have gotten good advice from everyone else already. I've never used snow tires, but they certainly will help for traction, handling and braking on snowy and icy conditions. Consumer Reports and TireRack.com are sources of information on specific brands and models.

[southpawboston]

if you can afford it, i would recommend to ANYONE who drives in any amount of snow or ice, to purchase a dedicated set of snow tires and rims, and keep them on the car during the appropriate season, then switch back to all-seasons or even dedicated summer tires for the other three seasons. there is no "all-season" tire on the market that can compare with a dedicated snow tire for ability to grip in snow and ice.

as for brand, i would not recommend any one; as CPSDarren mentions above, tirerack.com is a great resource for researching and comparing different brands and models of snow tires. also keep in mind that there are different type of snow tires-- studdable, studless, tires for ice, and performance snows. performance snows perform well in snow and also handle very well in dry weather, unlike normal studdable or studless snows.

i personally switched from "all-seasons" to a dedicated winter performance snow for winter about two years ago after my first DD was born. i will never go back to all-seasons again!! the difference is that great.

you can typically pick up a set of four snows, pre-mounted on steel rims for your car from tirerack for $500-600. then just keep your mounted all-seasons in the garage until spring and swap back again. a worthwhile investment, and in fact cheaper in the long run than not buying the extra rims and paying a garage to unmount/remount the tires each year on one set of rims.

[granolamama]

Hey, dvmvail... Did you have a chance yet to check what kind of tires your husband has?

Thanks,
Helen

[Wineaux]

Also, always remember that if you do start to skid on ice, snow, or water, turn into the skid and not away from it. This is contrary to what your brain tells you to do, but it will allow you to correct from the skid and not overcompensate and go into a spin.

These are the main factors which influence skidding. Of course, ideally you'll take note of these conditions ahead of time and avoid skidding. But let's assume you've done everything right and still find yourself in a skid. You come around a turn on some lovely mountain spring day and hit a patch of ice. Your car goes sideways. What now?

We posed this question to several experts in the field -- Danny McKeever of Fast Lane Driving School in Rosamond, California, and Randy Bleicher from Bob Bondurant School of High Performance Driving in Phoenix, Arizona. Their answers were remarkably similar.

1. Look where you want to go, and not at what you might run into. One big mistake novice drivers make is to focus on obstacles. They see a tree up ahead and think, "I'm going to hit it!" (Randy at Bondurant calls this the OS syndrome, as in "Oh S__t!") Unfortunately, the human body has an invisible connection with the mind. When the mind focuses on something, the body follows. Don't do that. Instead, direct your attention to the open space next to the tree. The body -- and car -- will follow.

2. Point your front tires where you want to go. Or, as you may have heard, steer in the direction of the skid. And don't overcompensate. Simply put: look where you want to go and then point the tires in that direction. The car will follow suit.

3. Apply throttle. Weren't expecting this one, were you? The idea here is to balance the weight of the vehicle over all four wheels, increasing traction. By giving 10-15 percent throttle, the vehicle gains contact with the ground. As Randy at Bondurant says, "Weight transfer is everything."

4. Wait to feel the pause. Once the preceding step has been accomplished, there will be a slight pause as the vehicle rights itself, stabilizes, and gains control. Again, Randy of Bondurant: "The pause is a transition period." You're now ready for the final step.

5. The pause tells you it's time to steer. In a reprise of Step Two, it's time to fine-tune your steering input and once again point your front tires in the direction you want to go. If you've done all the preceding steps correctly, you should come out of the skid unscathed.

This is also a good tip as well...

Skid Control:
Front Wheel Drive
Skid control is much harder to maintain in front wheel drive vehicles compared to rear wheel drive. In most cases the vehicle is out of control before the driver is aware. This is caused mainly from the false sense of security created by the acceleration that can be achieved with a front wheel drive vehicle.

Once a front wheel drive vehicle is into a skid the easiest recovery technique is to shift the vehicle into neutral, or depress the clutch (manual transmission), and apply the brakes gently trying to slow down the vehicle and regain steering control.

In a rear wheel skid, power can be applied to pull the vehicle forward so that the rear wheels will follow the front, instead of them trying to overtake the front. This is difficult to learn since the natural reaction is to take your foot off the accelerator rather than apply it. With power applied in a front wheel skid situation the steering will not react to the driver’s input, but by selecting neutral all four wheels have equal traction and control will be regained.
Rear Wheel Drive

The select neutral technique is also applicable to rear wheel drive vehicles.

Also, the natural reaction to take your foot off the accelerator will help correct a rear wheel skid.

[Morganthe]

if you can afford it, i would recommend to ANYONE who drives in any amount of snow or ice, to purchase a dedicated set of snow tires and rims, and keep them on the car during the appropriate season, then switch back to all-seasons or even dedicated summer tires for the other three seasons. there is no "all-season" tire on the market that can compare with a dedicated snow tire for ability to grip in snow and ice.i personally switched from "all-seasons" to a dedicated winter performance snow for winter about two years ago after my first DD was born. i will never go back to all-seasons again!! the difference is that great.
-----
you can typically pick up a set of four snows, pre-mounted on steel rims for your car from tirerack for $500-600. then just keep your mounted all-seasons in the garage until spring and swap back again. a worthwhile investment, and in fact cheaper in the long run than not buying the extra rims and paying a garage to unmount/remount the tires each year on one set of rims.

I completely agree with you that winter tires are so much better than all seasons! For the last 7 winters while we lived in Germany, we followed what the locals did.
Mid-Oct switch from summer/ all season tires to winter tires and then change in Mid-Apr. back again, unless we were planning on a trip to the mountains. There were a couple of times we were slow or the bad weather hit early. All seasons were pretty slippery on ice. Once the winter tires were on, it was like the tires had glue. It was great. The cars had so much more traction and I wasn't so paranoid about black ice.

Dh & I picked up steel rims for the car that didn't have a set when we bought it, from the "Auto recycling center" ie: military version of the junkyard. Those cost about $50. My local mechanic sold us Continental tires for just under $300 with mounting & balancing. (Exchange rate was good back then, though)

Sure we had 2 full sets of tires stored in our garage, but since we switched over bi yearly, we didn't purchase another set of tires for either of our cars until we were about to return to the US (Had to pick up US spec). The garage would have permanently stored our tires for about $8 a month if we asked. Apparently that was another custom.

If we lived in the Great white north (as dh refers fondly to the non-southwest), we would switch to winter tires again. It's a specialized tire. IMO, it's like a stroller or car seat, one item type cannot be perfect for all situations, especially extremes. :p

[Jacques]

If you can justify getting some snow tires, after seeing how Colorado got hit with a couple of snow storms lately, I would consider it. I've had experience driving in snow tires, and though it's not the best in terms of handling (in an SUV, truck, or minivan that's not a big priority), on snow the grip is very apparent. I had the Winterforce M+S (which is on sale at tirerack.com) for my Honda Prelude and it wwas amazing how those tires were able to carry me through both sleet and snow. The tires are also studdable, which would be good for you if you're allowed to have them in Colorado.

If you can afford getting a second set of wheels to mount snow tires (steelies would be a cheapest route), I'd recommend that too.

[southpawboston]

If we lived in the Great white north (as dh refers fondly to the non-southwest), we would switch to winter tires again. It's a specialized tire. IMO, it's like a stroller or car seat, one item type cannot be perfect for all situations, especially extremes. :p

correct! there is no tire that is perfect for all conditions. that is why the tires on just about ANY new car are not going to be good for all seasons, despite being branded as "all-season". "all-season" really means "not great in any season".

[granolamama]

I'm a bit confused by this, as the two sets of advice you quoted seem to me to be contradictory. I must not be understanding them correctly. It seems like the first says to apply the gas pedal lightly, while the second says to shift into neutral and brake? Either I'm misunderstanding that, or I have to choose one or the other. If I have to choose, how do I know which one to choose? Does it make a difference that my minivan has electronic stability control and antilock brakes? (My husband's truck doesn't, though, but it does have optional 4-wheel drive and low-traction 4-wheel drive.

I seem to be doing okay in all the snow lately; I just haven't been driving nearly as much as usual. The worst streets are actually in our own neighborhood, as we've got packed down snow (i.e. ice) and tire ruts. It's not so bad in the neighborhood when fresh snow comes and covers up the ice.

Thanks for all the advice.

-Helen

[southpawboston]

those quotes above are very confusing. basically, to simplify things, in a front wheel drive car, it's much more likely to understeer when you begin to loose control in a curve. that means that the front wheels "plow" ahead despite you turning the wheel to keep going through the curve. in this case, applying throttle only worsens things. to regain control, you have to back off the throttle, which promotes oversteer, and balances things out. in a rear wheel drive setup, the opposite happens. usually the back end begins to "fish tail" (oversteer) as you lose control through a curve. again, reducing throttle and reducing speed usually brings the back end back in control again by promoting understeer; accelerating would worsen the oversteer. however, in a rear wheel drive setup, if the front wheels begin to understeer in a curve, the best thing to do is apply the throttle, which will promote oversteer, and therefore correct the understeer. does that make any more sense?

since your van has stability control, the system basically tries to do all these corrections for you by applying appropriate braking force to the appropriate wheel so as to correct any understeer/oversteer, so i wouldn't worry so much about driving technique. of course, this does not mean that you can go barreling through a turn and have the stability control keep you from losing control!

[twokidstwodogs]

Southpaw--what about full-time AWD (in a Subie, which maintains a 55-45 split, I think). I was under the impression that you use a little throttle. Is that right?

[southpawboston]

AWD simplifies things... IIRC, it's easier to get into "4 wheel drifts" where all four wheels are drifting sideways instead of understeering or oversteering. in that case, i really don't know what's best when you lose control... i've never tried to "drift" in an AWD car...

[granolamama]

Speaking of cars drifting sideways, have you all seen this video of all the cars sliding around in Portland, OR? Go to this site, http://www.kgw.com/news-local/, and click on the "15 car collisions caught on tape by KGW viewer" video link.

[twokidstwodogs]

I haven't lost control of a car since I was 17 (slammed on the brakes on wet pavement to stop at a stop sign I didn't see, and did a 180). I know I'm awfully lucky, given that I have driven hundreds of thousands of miles since then (mostly in Subarus). But it makes me a little nervous about my emergency handling skills. They haven't gotten much practice! I've always wanted to take one of those weekend driver training courses, but they don't have them anywhere nearby. Maybe when the kids are older....

[Jacques]

I trust my driving skills regardless what car I'm driving, but it always scares me how other people drive in the snow.

[twokidstwodogs]

I trust my driving skills regardless what car I'm driving, but it always scares me how other people drive in the snow.

I trust my driving skills too--as I said, I haven't lost control of a car in twenty years and a couple hundred thousand accident-free miles on high-speed, heavily traveled suburban and urban roads. And I've avoided lots of accidents in that time period. But I think that's different from being perfectly confident that you will be able to handle your car in whatever emergency arises. It's one thing to know in your head how to get out of a skid, but it's another thing to put that into practice while skidding. I have some emergency handling experience, but I'd like to get more of it, without actually getting into any emergencies!

[southpawboston]

sometimes driving confidence has a lot to do with the car you are driving. some cars inspire confidence and the driver is instinctively "one" with the car, and other cars are just so hard to feel connected with. the latter applies mostly to SUVs, trucks, and to a lesser extent, minivans. i drove a 2005 CRV with all the safety bells and whistles and i never really felt like i knew the car's limits and how it would handle in an emergency situation. there was no feedback to the driver as to what the car was doing. however in my current mazda3, i know exactly what the car is doing at any particular moment. i can take it to the limit of its roadholding and always feel like i can bring it back into control if i exceed the limits. this aspect of safety is rarely factored into car purchases... people seem to be so obsesses with more passive safety.

[Morganthe]

sometimes driving confidence has a lot to do with the car you are driving. some cars inspire confidence and the driver is instinctively "one" with the car, and other cars are just so hard to feel connected with.

I sometimes believe that with all these very nice computer safety options on our vehicles, we are losing our extreme driving skills. They're all well & good while they work, but many times road conditions need a driver's practiced skill more than a car's passive safety system to maneuver. I just don't want to trust my family's safety entirely to the skill of a dumb computer who is as smart as its programer.

Yesterday, I completely freaked out my abs system when I was driving on solid sheet ice. It's a Camry and I could see that there was no chance for stopping without sliding before I could turn the corner.

Halfway down the block, I touched the brakes to slow and eventually stop. If I hadnt' known about the system not liking ice like that, I would have been terribly distracted by the extremely loud sounds coming from my wheel areas where the car was brake & releasing even though I didn't need it. No vehicles were around, I knew what I was doing, but still the car fought my handling of it.
It's too bad these passive systems can't be switched on or off at driver's discretion.

[southpawboston]

I sometimes believe that with all these very nice computer safety options on our vehicles, we are losing our extreme driving skills. They're all well & good while they work, but many times road conditions need a driver's practiced skill more than a car's passive safety system to maneuver. I just don't want to trust my family's safety entirely to the skill of a dumb computer who is as smart as its programer.

Yesterday, I completely freaked out my abs system when I was driving on solid sheet ice. It's a Camry and I could see that there was no chance for stopping without sliding before I could turn the corner.

Halfway down the block, I touched the brakes to slow and eventually stop. If I hadnt' known about the system not liking ice like that, I would have been terribly distracted by the extremely loud sounds coming from my wheel areas where the car was brake & releasing even though I didn't need it. No vehicles were around, I knew what I was doing, but still the car fought my handling of it.
It's too bad these passive systems can't be switched on or off at driver's discretion.

amen! yes, passive safety is all well and good, and i'm glad that i have these features on my car, but i think you are right when you say it promotes drivers with less than adequate skills to think they are driving safely. i think i wrote in another thread something to this effect. there is a psychological phenomenon known as "risk compensation", and in the application of this phenonemon to driving a car, it exmplains how we unconcsciously may drive more carelessly since we know we have so many passive safety features protecting us.

[Jacques]

I trust my driving skills too--as I said, I haven't lost control of a car in twenty years and a couple hundred thousand accident-free miles on high-speed, heavily traveled suburban and urban roads. And I've avoided lots of accidents in that time period. But I think that's different from being perfectly confident that you will be able to handle your car in whatever emergency arises. It's one thing to know in your head how to get out of a skid, but it's another thing to put that into practice while skidding. I have some emergency handling experience, but I'd like to get more of it, without actually getting into any emergencies!

Oh no, by no means do I consider myself an expert on being able to handle every emergency situation that arises. Besides regular driving through the past 20 years like you, the last six years I've also had track experience through different driving schools/HPDEs/lapping days and from autocrossing. Though in that kind of driving my experiences have only been on dry and wet (through pouring rain), through different surfaces, tires (all-season, summer performance, and r-compound/racing tires), and car types (FWD/RWD/AWD), it has helped me become a better driver in some "real world" situations. Of course, I can't do any racing in the real world, so I keep that part on the track. :)

I'd love to take an emergency handling school, especially one for snow. On top of that, I'd like to get that kind of experience with different kinds of vehicles. Handling dynamics on my car is vastly different from my SUV, so like you I'd like to get more experience as well.

[Jacques]

amen! yes, passive safety is all well and good, and i'm glad that i have these features on my car, but i think you are right when you say it promotes drivers with less than adequate skills to think they are driving safely. i think i wrote in another thread something to this effect. there is a psychological phenomenon known as "risk compensation", and in the application of this phenonemon to driving a car, it exmplains how we unconcsciously may drive more carelessly since we know we have so many passive safety features protecting us.

So true. It irritates me when people are more reckless because they assume that they will be able to drive in any situation in their "better equipped" car. Call it a false sense of security.

[Jeanum]

Absolutely, the type of vehicle often lends itself to a false sense of security or superiority when the roads are slippery. Anecdotally, I tend to see a greater percentage of SUVs/AWD vehicles in the ditch when it snows or we have ice storms around here. Sometimes they're the very same vehicles I saw being driven aggressively and passing me mere moments/minutes before I see them in the ditch. :rolleyes:

[southpawboston]

Absolutely, the type of vehicle often lends itself to a false sense of security or superiority when the roads are slippery. Anecdotally, I tend to see a greater percentage of SUVs/AWD vehicles in the ditch when it snows or we have ice storms around here. Sometimes they're the very same vehicles I saw being driven aggressively and passing me mere moments/minutes before I see them in the ditch. :rolleyes:

as i said above: risk compensation. "i am in an invinsible vehicle; therefore i can go faster than anyone else". [moments later V8 SUV is in ditch, toyota prius passes it by].

[WESTMICHIGANLEO]

I see that all the time at work.

My favorite comments to them are:

1) You can't park there.

and

2)It's a good thing you have 4 wheel drive ...... otherwise you never would have made it that far down there. :D


Then I call a wrecker for them.

[papooses]

I've only ever had AWD in the winter & would like to comment that IME it does not help to use a little throttle -- easing off & going with the slip has always worked well for me....

This year my tires are great for the winter & I have a lot of driving to do this year (take Leila to school 30 minutes away, drive 45 minutes to college, 45 mins. back to pick Leila up, 30 mins. home, then 60 mins. to college again & 60 mins. back home *UGH*) -- since my mom's front wheel drive Prius has better tires for the season I take hers & she drives my AWD Freestar the 1/2 mile to work :rolleyes:

[southpawboston]

(take Leila to school 30 minutes away, drive 45 minutes to college, 45 mins. back to pick Leila up, 30 mins. home, then 60 mins. to college again & 60 mins. back home *UGH*)

:eek: this is one advantage of living in an urban environment with mass transit...my car is six months old and only has 4,200 miles so far! the longest trip it sees is a 55 min trip every other weekend to see my mom!

[beeman]

Yeah that 4wd is another one I think drivers overuse. I have only had a 4wd truck for one week (when dads truck got hit by a bus, got a great loaner for a week, 04 F350 7.3 diesel :D ) and only used the 4wd once. I went into an area that was muddy to get about 50ft closer to the bees I was working, and got stuck in the mud. I wouldn't have tried this with a 2wd. I put it into 4L and crawled rigth out. Now if I was in 4wd and got stuck I would have had to call a tow truck :( . A 2wd should get through most snow that a 4wd will get through. Just use the 4wd when you get stuck. And as far as I'm concerned a set of chains on a 2wd is as good, if not better than a 4wd. With the 4wd you can end up with 2 wheels spinning rather than one. I know I sound opinionated, but I figure 4wd should just be used to get you out of places 2wd got you into. It's not great for always driving in 4wd.

I got my '95 F150 in June and have put over 20,000km (13,000mi) on it since then. Country driving racks them on quick!