What's the harm in a door mounted shoulder belt and cs? [Archive] - Car Seat.Org - Carseat, Vehicle & Child Passenger Safety Forums

christineka

07-31-2009, 07:53 PM

As I sit here wishing I could just take my 4 kids to mcdonalds' because I'm on the verge of having an emotional meltdown... (No, not going anywhere since I have only two car seats home anyway.)

If the seat could be installed with the lap belt, why can't you and just skip the shoulderbelt? It is so loose that it wouldn't interfere with the installation. In an accident it is supposed to tighten up (I have my doubts.), but it should stay in place. What is the harm in installing a car seat with a lap only belt where there is a door mounted shoulderbelt?

safeinthecar

07-31-2009, 08:19 PM

None. However, most cars with door mounted belts have lap belts that are ELR, (if it doesn't it has an airbag) and about half (all the fords) have anchor points so far forward of the bight that you need to install a secondary female end of the buckle (called a Cougar buckle) in order to get a decent install. If you can get a good install, go for it.

Maedze

07-31-2009, 08:32 PM

Just keep in mind if the lap belt is ELR, you cannot use it to install a child restraint without a belt shortening clip and an experienced technician.

Pixels

07-31-2009, 08:40 PM

Mommy2Marcus

08-01-2009, 12:36 AM

What is an ELR lap belt?? Is it the kind that ratches back into the seat? I have a friend with this kind of belt in her center back seat with a Ford Explorer, I think that is what it is, & that is where she has her son's Scenera installed. Is this unsafe?? It is a good tight install that does not move! However it does not have a shoulder belt that attaches to it.

CelticLabyrinth

08-01-2009, 12:39 AM

wendytthomas

08-01-2009, 12:43 AM

No, that's an ALR lap belt. Automatic locking retractor. An ELR belt, emergency locking retractor, only locks in an emergency. For an ELR shoulder and lap belt you use a locking clip. For an ELR lap belt only you need a belt shortening clip and someone who knows how to use one (in over three years I've never even seen it done, nevermind having done it myself).

Wendy

joolsplus3

08-01-2009, 07:35 AM

What about door-mount for both lap and shoulder belts? I've seen in several CRS manuals, and I believe it was also discussed in my tech class that it's a no-no. The reason given in class was that if the door was to open, there wouldn't be anything holding the CRS in (ejection). But wouldn't that be the same for an adult occupant, so therefore nobody should ever use that seating position?

Yup. They are horribly less than safe, and that's why no car companies make them anymore. It was just some crazy way of making restraints automatic so people wouldn't have to think about buckling up, but it's a big fat fail :thumbsup:

And for carseats, it wouldn't even be a problem just in a crash, but you couldn't open the door at all without the seat falling out, and it's kind of tough to load a baby through the driver's side door or back seat all the time....

:)

safeinthecar

08-01-2009, 09:56 AM

And for carseats, it wouldn't even be a problem just in a crash, but you couldn't open the door at all without the seat falling out, and it's kind of tough to load a baby through the driver's side door or back seat all the time....

:)

Not to mention you'd have to install the seat from the driver's side in the first place (not easy considering you'd have to use a belt shortening clip) and that the anchor points would be totally and completely wonky.

christineka

08-01-2009, 10:11 AM

The lap belt locks. Is it still elr? This is a ford. I will likely never ever put a car seat (with child) in the front. I just wanted to know why I couldn't other than up front is not very safe. I have put car seats by themselves up front. I've lost the vehicle manual, so I don't know if there is a passenger air bag or not.

Maedze

08-01-2009, 10:13 AM

How does it lock? I've never seen a door mounted lap shoulder with a locking lap belt, but of course it's possible.

Judi

08-01-2009, 10:33 AM

Pics!

christineka

08-01-2009, 10:43 AM

We'll see if I can get dh to deal with pics. I do have some of the baby that need to be uploaded anyway.

The belt just locks after you buckle. I don't know how it is. Maybe I haven't played with it enough and it doesn't really lock. I'll have to go and check it out.

Judi

08-01-2009, 10:50 AM

Sounds like ALR.

Defrost

08-01-2009, 10:57 AM

Thomas came home from the hospital riding in the front seat of a '92 Eagle Summit (Dodge Colt clone), in a baseless infant seat.

The Summit had a door-mounted shoulder belt, switchable lap-belt. For car seat installation, you just undid the shoulder belt and let it retract so it was out of the way, and switched the lap-belt to ALR. It was a very easy install, actually.

christineka

08-01-2009, 11:36 AM

I went out, played, and took pics, but dh is busy.

I pulled the lap belt out a little way, stopped, then it was locked. So, then I put in the avenue, tested it and it didn't budge. So, does that mean I'm set in case I absolutely have to take 4 kids in that car?

Judi

08-01-2009, 11:51 AM

So the lap belt does does attach to the door?

Pixels

08-01-2009, 11:56 AM

And for carseats, it wouldn't even be a problem just in a crash, but you couldn't open the door at all without the seat falling out, and it's kind of tough to load a baby through the driver's side door or back seat all the time....

:)

I didn't even think about that part. With the lap belt mounted on the door and locked for a carseat install, you wouldn't be able to open the door at all. Ever. Unless you uninstalled the carseat.

I guess I'm still having a hard time reconciling that it's okay to use that for an adult, but not a carseat. With an adult, if the door opens, adult falls out. With a carseat (traditional, hard shell), if the door opens, the carseat would still be at least sort of retained because of the seatbelt going through the shell. Plus it would be much less likely for the door to open, since the seatbelt would be holding it closed.

Don't worry, I won't install a carseat in such a vehicle/position. I'm just not 100% sure that it makes sense in my head.

christineka

08-01-2009, 12:08 PM

So the lap belt does does attach to the door?

No. The lap belt is attached to the side of the car. It is only the shoulder belt that attaches to the door. It slides forward when you open the door and slides back when you turn the car on. The lap belt is completely separate from the shoulder belt. People who are not familiar with the car tend to think the shoulder belt is all there is and don't know to look for a lap belt.

bobandjess99

08-01-2009, 12:21 PM

are you talkign aboutthe escort? I have a 92 ish escort, with a belt setup like you are describing. the lap belt is just a plain regular locking lapbelt, installed inside the car, not attached to the door. the shoulder belt is a stupid, asinine contraption that automatically slides along the doorframe and strangles you when you enter or exit the car. the lap belt and shoulder belt are not attached to each other at all.
If i had to, I would feel okay installing a carseat in that front position (there aren't even any airbags in my car, so ffing or rfing), installed with just that locking lapbelt, and the stupid shoudler belt detached out of the way.

christineka

08-01-2009, 12:26 PM

It's a 1994 Tempo. I agree on that stupid shoulderbelt.

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m277/christineka/car%20seats/tempo.jpg

bobandjess99

08-01-2009, 12:30 PM

lol
the tempo was my first car......then a duster...then a series of ancient 80's oldmobile tanks...then the escort. ahhh.....the memories.....

Defrost

08-01-2009, 12:40 PM

are you talkign aboutthe escort? I have a 92 ish escort, with a belt setup like you are describing. the lap belt is just a plain regular locking lapbelt, installed inside the car, not attached to the door. the shoulder belt is a stupid, asinine contraption that automatically slides along the doorframe and strangles you when you enter or exit the car. the lap belt and shoulder belt are not attached to each other at all.

Oh yes, that's the best description I've read yet! That's exactly how my Summit was set up. I can't even tell you how many people I've seen riding around with just the lap belt because the shoulder belts in those have broken.

You know why they quit making them? Because so many people didn't realize you had to use the lap-belt, too, and using just the shoulder belt was causing decapitation in severe enough crashes. :thumbsdown:

cryswilkins

08-01-2009, 12:56 PM

I knew we were talking about a Tempo, lol. That was my first car, only an '88 with flat red paint.

I would feel ok in an emergency putting all 4 kids in the car if the child in the front was moved as far back as possible.

christineka

08-01-2009, 03:41 PM

safeinthecar

08-01-2009, 04:06 PM

Now I'd like to know why all the car seat manuals tell you not to install the car seat with belts mounted to the door. Is it just so they don't have to go into detailed explanations about which type of belt is and isn't okay?

Because they don't want to confuse the issue and many of those belts require special equipment. Same reason they say not to use lap/shoulder belts with separate retractors even though some are ALR on the lap belt and you can use a BSC on the ELR ones.

bobandjess99

08-01-2009, 05:52 PM

yep...too confusing, so instaead of spell it all out for parents, many of whom dont even follow the most basic and simple of instructions correctly, they just prohibit it, like a doctor that tells you to stop nursing while taking medicine, rather than look it up to see if it's safe.

Maedze

08-01-2009, 06:04 PM

Except in the case of the medicine, it's most likely safe to continue nursing, whereas with the seatbelt, it's most likely not.

MissKatie

08-01-2009, 07:24 PM

My car has a similar system except that the lap belts are ELR, not ALR. My car came in very handy during the CPST course because the front seats allowed us to practice with the BSC. Gotta admit I never thought I'd be installing a snugride base in my driver's seat.

I don't mind the door mounted shoulder belt for ME because I'm very small in stature and I think the seperation of the belts actually improves the belt fit for me. But, I HATE it for transporting passengers. I've taken to informing everyone who sits in the passenger seat of my car about the lap belt, because nine times out of ten if I don't mention it, they have no idea it's there and don't buckle it, riding around just in the shoulder belt which I'm sure we all know would be a disaster in a crash. Just another reason I need a new car!!

UlrikeDG

08-02-2009, 12:35 AM

I have a '91 Camry in my garage with that kind of belt. AFAIK, the shoulder belt cannot be disconnected. It might not affect the actual install (just buckle the lap belt and tighten), but it WILL sit in front of the child's face while the vehicle is moving. If you get in a crash, do you really want a "stray" belt in the picture? I wouldn't!

murphydog77

08-02-2009, 01:52 AM

Oh yes, that's the best description I've read yet! That's exactly how my Summit was set up. I can't even tell you how many people I've seen riding around with just the lap belt because the shoulder belts in those have broken.

You know why they quit making them? Because so many people didn't realize you had to use the lap-belt, too, and using just the shoulder belt was causing decapitation in severe enough crashes. :thumbsdown:

There was a model who was famous back in the 90s, or maybe the 80s--sheesh, it's been a long time--who was riding in a car with one of those seat belts and didn't buckle the lap belt and her liver was cut in half by the shoulder belt. It was after she had had her twins, but she never made it back to modeling after the crash. It really changed her life.

Jeanum

08-02-2009, 08:41 AM

DH had a friend in college with a Civic that had the motorized front shoulder belts and separate lap belts. She never used the lap belt portion. I'm using the past tense because she died in a crash as a result of not buckling the lap belt. :eek: :( Our '88 Grand Am had GM's awful version of the passive front seatbelts, with the lap-shoulder belts that were door mounted and in theory intended to remain buckled so that you could exit and enter the car without unbuckling. In reality, though, it was an awful, awkward and safety unconscious design, and it was much easier to just buckle up and unbuckle each time rather than duck in and out under the buckled seatbelt when you opened the door. Plus if the door opened during a crash or while the car was underway, ejection odds went up greatly. :eek:

skaterbabscpst

08-02-2009, 09:56 PM

How does it lock? I've never seen a door mounted lap shoulder with a locking lap belt, but of course it's possible.

My first car (a '91 Hyundai Excel 2 door) had a door-mounted shoulder belt with a buckle release and the lap belt was switchable IIRC. The lap portion was mounted to the floor of the car.

Niea

08-02-2009, 11:15 PM

You know why they quit making them? Because so many people didn't realize you had to use the lap-belt, too, and using just the shoulder belt was causing decapitation in severe enough crashes. :thumbsdown:

My former co-worker was in an accident with a passive shoulder belt and broke her neck. She submarined, snagging her chin on the shoulder belt and cracked several vertebrae. Fortunately her spinal column remained intact and she has no paralysis. But she did have to spend 6 mos in the hospital and wear a halo and multiple surgeries. She's lucky to be alive.

The other problem is that the door frame is so high that unless you're really tall, the shoulder belt is almost always improperly placed. That was the other deal with my coworker. . she's barely 5'4 and she remembers how the shoulder belt didn't fit her well at all.

There was (well, still is) a law saying that after a certain year all vehicles had to have a passive restraint system. That's when some manufacturers went with the passive shoulder belt set up while others went with air bags. But as you say, there came a point where it was very obvious that the passive shoulder belts were horrible and that air bags are the way to go.

An Aurora

08-02-2009, 11:55 PM

We used to have a '91 Civic with a passive shoulder belt that disconected easily. It had a red button that you could pop the belt off the door frame with.

Morganthe

08-03-2009, 01:49 AM

You know why they quit making them? Because so many people didn't realize you had to use the lap-belt, too, and using just the shoulder belt was causing decapitation in severe enough crashes. :thumbsdown:

The irony is that insurance companies still give discounts on having these "automatic" type of belts because it's not dependent on the occupant to physically secure the shoulder belt.

Every insurance agent who has asked me if whatever car I'm driving, admits these things can be worse than nothing. :dizzy: But the 'system' rewards the owner monetarily for having one. :rolleyes: :(

BTW -- I hate this style. At 21, I realized they had to have a lapbelt to make them really 'safe'. I hadn't experienced one before, so I read the safety labels when I got in with a friend. I felt so unsafe depending on something attached to a door to keep me in the vehicle. Doors fly open. Seatbelts exend when they do. The idea of flipping right out just freaked me out.

It's one of the reasons I never bought a US specs Passat before this one. IIRC, up until 1998 or so, they all had these types of seatbelts that had a belt track on or above the door. Can't remember which. YUCK! :thumbsdown:

bobandjess99

08-03-2009, 03:30 PM