PLEASE HELP-my SIL has her baby in the FRONT SEAT!!!

[fingersdoublecrossed]

My SIL has her 8 month old RF (in a Graco Safeseat) in the *FRONT SEAT*
I couldn't believe it...and questioned her about it.
She explained that because there were no AIRBAGS in the front AND the fact that it's hard to GET into the back seat in their 2 door car, that it was OKAY...that the 'cops' said it was okay?!?!? :eek::eek:

So if ANYone could respond with ANY info, I would be VERY appreciative.

Baby is 8 months old and RF in a Graco SafeSeat (in the FRONT passenger seat)
Car: 1991 Dodge/Plymouth COLT 200E
We are in CANADA as if that makes ANY difference!

Thanks in advance for ANY guidance you may have.

[Pixels]

As long as there are no airbags, and the law* doesn't say you can't, it's not an absolute no-no. The back seat is about 35% safer than the front seat, just because it's farther from the most common and most violent point of impact (frontal). I wouldn't do it with my kid, unless there was no other option (like if there were 3 other children riding in the back of the vehicle). How hard is it, really, to snap an infant seat in and out of the base in the back? I don't know, I haven't tried it in a 2-door car. I guess I would be more understanding if it was a rear facing convertible.

* I have no idea what, if any, laws there might be on this in Canada. I do know that in the US, some states have made it illegal for a child to ride in the front, especially if there is an empty back seat.

[fingersdoublecrossed]

My SIL has her 8 month old RF (in a Graco Safeseat) in the *FRONT SEAT*
I couldn't believe it...and questioned her about it.
She explained that because there were no AIRBAGS in the front AND the fact that it's hard to GET into the back seat in their 2 door car, that it was OKAY...that the 'cops' said it was okay?!?!?

So if ANYone could respond with ANY info, I would be VERY appreciative.

Baby is 8 months old and RF in a Graco SafeSeat (in the FRONT passenger seat)
Car: 1991 Dodge/Plymouth COLT 200E
We are in CANADA as if that makes ANY difference!

Thanks in advance for ANY guidance you may have.

[northernmommy]

While her child would be safer in the back seat, if there is NO airbag in the front, and the seat is installed correctly and used correctly, s/he is not UNsafe in the front. In fact, if it's more difficult for her to use the seat properly in the back, the child may actually be safer up front where it's used properly.

[QuassEE]

I totally agree. My oldest son was in the front seat anytime my ex-husband wasn't in the car with us, way back when. Cars were only just starting to get passenger side airbags, and ours didn't have one. I loved being able to keep an eye on him, especially since he had been having seizures.

I actually drove from here to California and back at least four times with him in the front passenger seat!

-Nicole.

[sparkyd]

Ditto. I would always put the seat in back if it was an option, but my son rode rear-facing in the front of my husbands two-seater truck (airbag manually disabled - no airbag at all is better) for about 8 months. Still would be if we weren't selling the truck.

[fingersdoublecrossed]

Thank-you for your unput...although I am utterly MORTIFIED that this would actually be ALLOWED, I now understand...not REALLY understand...but you probably KWIM.
Thanks,

Julie

[fingersdoublecrossed]

Thank-you for your unput...although I am utterly MORTIFIED that this would actually be ALLOWED, *no offense please* I now understand...not REALLY understand...but you KWIM.
Thanks for the input ladies...ALOT!!:thumbsup:

Julie

[QuassEE]

It's a bit of a media effect, I think.

For example--when the media started over the dangers of children and airbags, we started seeing a LOT of children in lapbelts in the centre rear of vehicles...some of whom were actually using boosters designed for lap-shoulderbelts back there. This is a case where sitting in the front passenger seat is actually SAFER for the child. My 11 year old sits in the front passenger seat with his booster, and once in a while I'll actually get dirty looks from people as a result.

This is what happens when the mass media tells us it's no longer safe for children to sit in the front, but doesn't quite explain WHY and that there are exceptions to the rule.

-Nicole.

[Gypsy]

I'd be very concerned to the point of going over there are showing crash test footage IF there was an airbag.

Here's the deal...

The back seat is 40% safer (about 35% with no airbag), but being rear facing is 500% safer than being forward facing.

So rear facing in the front seat with no airbag is still very safe.

If there was an airbag, the baby would be at risk of decapitation if the airbag deployed. That would be an urgent situation and I'd do everything in my power to prevent a child from riding rear facing in front of an air bag.

[fingersdoublecrossed]

No, there's NO airbag in the car...it's an 'old' car and before they were made.
Thanks,
Julie

[rochelle]

the fact that it's hard to GET into the back seat in their 2 door car, that it was OKAY...that the 'cops' said it was okay.

the cops may have said its okay because they may not be able to get the infant car seat into the back seat.

e.g. one of the cars we tested before we bought our corolla was a 2+1 door Yaris (hatchback). it was tough getting the Scenara in to the backseat just for installing at the dealer.

how about seeing if your SIL is willing to buy and install a RF convertible behind the driver seat. that is how some of my neighbours with 2 door car does theirs as they can easily climb in with baby into the back seat and buckle the baby in.

[fingersdoublecrossed]

Great IDEA...the money's not there though...I imagine they will probably FF at a year like lots of people DO...and I guess 'ol Auntie Julie will just hope for the BEST and that they never get into an accident!:(
Thanks for your input...take care,
Julie

[sunnydayz]

In Europe rear-facing car seats are routinely put in front seats where there are no airbags (or there is an actual switch to turn off the airbag, not just a sensor like US cars). I personally would be comfortable with a rear-facing seat in a front seat without an airbag. Make sure there is not a passenger air-bag and that the seat is properly installed though.

[spokaneCPST]

We recently had a young dad come to a carseat check. His girlfriend was at the hospital in labor and he was very concerned that his baby would be able to go home safely. He had a tiny tiny little sports car with very small, scooped out back seats. He had an Evenflo infant seat and there was no way that seat was fitting in the back seat of that car. I could not get a good install of the base or without the base and even with the best I could get, the front seat was laying on the back of the carseat. The front seat did not lock into place, so it could not stay flipped forward either.

We ended up putting the seat in the front, after confirming that there was not a front passenger airbag. I did not like to do that and it seemed totally wrong, but it was the only option that was remotely safe in that car. He called me several days later to confirm that it was OK, as his friends had questioned having baby in front. I was glad to hear that at least other people knew that normally, babies do not ride in the front!

[Mama Jo]

Didn't Adventuredad post something awhile back about a study in Sweden (or maybe somewhere else in Europe) that stated that RF seats were actually safer in the front seat provided there was no airbag?? I don't remember reading the whole thread... just the first few posts...and it only applied to RF seats, not FF seats. Or maybe I'm mistaken. I know it wasn't in the US or CA, but somewhere in Europe... and it seemed there was quite a bit of debate within the thread...

[Adventuredad]

RF kids in the front passenger seat scare people since they don't know the facts. A RF child in the front passenger seat with a deactivated airbag (key or switch, not sensor) is as safe or safer than the rear seat. This has been proven by research and real life usage ages ago. Please read more here (http://www.carseat.se/rearfacing/position-in-vehicle/front-seat-safety/). Britax state this on their own website and so does BeSafe, Volvo etc.

The debate over this among parents is heated while there is no debate whatsoever among researchers or car seat pros who work with this on a daily basis.

Please note that this applies only to RF kids with deactivated airbag. It does not apply to booster kids, older kids,etc. These kids are safer in the rear seat.

[fingersdoublecrossed]

That's BLOWING my MIND!!:eek:
Thanks for this info...it's blowing my mind but thanks alot!!:thumbsup:

Julie

[QuassEE]

I'm not sure we ever addressed the *law* on this.. As far as I'm aware, it's illegal in Quebec for a child under 13 (or perhaps under 12?) to sit in the front seat. There may be other provinces as well..so it could technically be illegal, but it's not necessarily unsafe.

-Nicole.

[TechnoGranola]

I'm not sure we ever addressed the *law* on this.. As far as I'm aware, it's illegal in Quebec for a child under 13 (or perhaps under 12?) to sit in the front seat. There may be other provinces as well..so it could technically be illegal, but it's not necessarily unsafe.

-Nicole.I've been searching a bit today and it seems in Quebec it is recommended, but not a law (unless I've missed something). Here's one link http://www.saaq.gouv.qc.ca/en/accident_prevention/childseats/stop_using.php and the Government web site gave the link to that site. There doesn't seem to be a law in ON, AB or SK either. I haven't checked any other provinces.

[fingersdoublecrossed]

I would LOVE to know the laws in Ontario...but I can't find ANYthing!

Julie

[hipmaman]

I don't believe there is no law anywhere in Canada that the front seat is off limit to children - even for ff, booster, seatbelt only, etc. Perhaps Allport can chime in to confirm.

[TechnoGranola]

I would LOVE to know the laws in Ontario...but I can't find ANYthing!

JulieThis page (http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/safety/carseat/choose.shtml) talks about what car seats at which stages in Ontario and discusses laws within the sections. The only thing I see about the rear seat is that children under 13 are safest in the rear seat (and they mention it a couple times).

[hipmaman]

I would LOVE to know the laws in Ontario...but I can't find ANYthing!

Julie

From the MTO page http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/faq/safety.shtml#passenger15

Where is the safest place in the vehicle to put a child safety seat?
The MTO recommends that children under the age of 13 years be placed in the back seat of the vehicle and away from active front air bags.

[fingersdoublecrossed]

WHY isn't there any real LAW info?!
Stuff like this bugs me!!:mad:
Thanks for looking it up and trying...I will look tomorrow and post if I FIND anything...will CALL MTO if need be!:rolleyes:

Julie

[Nennib]

If you read the actual law/Act for Ontario, it is illegal to have a child in the front passenger seat of any motor vehicle if there is an active passenger side airbag and the child is using a car or booster seat.

[fingersdoublecrossed]

By chance would you have an actual LINK that I could confirm that info with??
Thanks alot,
Julie

[Nennib]

http://www.search.e-laws.gov.on.ca/en/isysquery/22d73185-6cbc-4fad-be4a-a8412a77fa55/1/frame/?search=browseStatutes&context=

You have to search "child restraint", select the Highway Traffic Act R.R.O. 1990 Reg. 613

Here is a copy of the relevant area related to older children. By default you can't have a "toddler", as defined by the Act, in the front seat because there is no top tether anchor. Interestingly, the Act doesn't speak to it being illegal to have an infant rear facing in the front seat with an airbag. Of course the catch all that does make it illegal is that you must use the car seat as recommended by the manufacturer and every car seat clearly states not to place a rear facing car seat in front of an air bag.

Highway Traffic Act R.R.O. 1990 Reg. 613 Paragraph 8, Section (7) and (8)

(7) A pre-school to primary grade child shall be secured (a child 40-80 pounds),

(a) if there is a seating position in the motor vehicle that has a seat belt assembly consisting of a pelvic restraint and a torso restraint, in that position,

(i) on a child booster seat that conforms to the requirements of Standard 213.2 under the Motor Vehicle Safety Act (Canada) and that is used in the manner recommended by the manufacturer of the child booster seat, and

(ii) by the motor vehicle's complete seat belt assembly, worn as described in subsection (9);

(b) if all the seating positions in the motor vehicle have a seat belt assembly consisting only of a pelvic restraint, by the pelvic restraint, worn as described in subsection (9); or

(c) in a child restraint system described in clause (6) (a), if the manufacturer's specifications permit or recommend the system for use by children who weigh 18 kilograms or more and not less than the weight of the pre-school to primary grade child. O. Reg. 195/05, s. 1; O. Reg. 522/06, s. 8 (1).

(8) Despite clauses (7) (a) and (b), a pre-school to primary grade child shall not be secured in a seating position if the seating position has a front air bag that has not been turned off or cannot be turned off. O. Reg. 195/05, s. 1.

[fingersdoublecrossed]

Here's what I found:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/tp/tp2436/rs200006/page41.htm#Rear

Side air bags and front seat travel
Never place an infant seat in the front seat of a vehicle equipped with a front air bag unless the air bag has been deactivated.

If the front passenger air bag has been deactivated and you have no alternative but to travel with your baby in the front seat of a vehicle:

Adjust the front passenger seat to the rearmost track position by sliding the seat back as far as it will go.
Install the rear-facing infant seat according to manufacturer’s instructions. Tightly secure it with the seat belt so that the base doesn’t slide or move more than 2.5 cm (1 inch) in any direction.
Clear the area between the infant seat and the door of all objects. Toys, blankets, and even pillows could harm your baby if the side air bag inflates.

God this is frustrating...too much 'mumbo-jumbo'.:rolleyes:
Thanks for the reference.

[sparkyd]

By default you can't have a "toddler", as defined by the Act, in the front seat because there is no top tether anchor.

Unless it is a two-seater vehicle made post 2002 (when UAS/LATCH came in), in which case there will be both lower anchors and a top tether in the front seat, and you will be able to manually disable the airbag with a key.

I would have more reservations about putting a FF child in the front than a RF one, but I'm just saying that it can be done in certain circumstances.

[dd9736]

I don't believe there is no law anywhere in Canada that the front seat is off limit to children - even for ff, booster, seatbelt only, etc. Perhaps Allport can chime in to confirm.

there is a law for ffing harnessed children, as the seats must be tethered in canada, but my friend got a Ford van with an anchor point on the passneger seat, (all posistions had them she said, except the drivers seat)