Fed. Law keeps Volvo from offering safer child seats

[christineka]

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/04/21/report-federal-laws-keeping-volvo-from-offering-safer-child-sea/

[codex57]

Gov't beauracracy at its finest.

However, this has me thinking. Porsche offers a car seat. I'm pretty sure I remember Mercedes offering their own as well. I didn't know about this rule and I thought those seats were specific to those manufacturers.

Now, I'm wondering what kind of seats they are and if they're any good. Admittedly it's stupid, but a big part of why I got the Recaro was for the racy Recaro name and looks (ok, the looks aren't too racy, but better than most). A Porsche branded seat (even if made by Recaro).... http://forum.e46fanatics.com/images/smilies/drool.gif

[Starlight]

The booster looks just like the Monarch, and the combo seat vaguely like a British seat - the Evolva? Hmmm... I don't keep up on the infant seats, so no clue.

[mommaon112903]

The car seat reminds me of the Britax MT, and did anyone else notice the child was RFing :)

[joolsplus3]

The Porshe and Mercedes seats were just Britax with colorful covers and some electronic doohickies to turn off the airbags (or not...that was only some of them), but they still fit in other cars. I don't get why these wouldn't fit in other cars :confused: Look like a Babysafe, Two Way Elite, and Monarch to me...

Edit, my bad...definitely multitech... http://www.britax.se/multitech08.htm

[Momof4Girls]

Every seat must fit in every car? How do they allow for overhang (or not), handles up or down on infant seat, long/short/rigid buckle stocks, etc? Each vehicle manufacturer has its own standards for seats and seatbelts...just because a seat installs on the test bench doesn't mean it will install in every vehicle on the market.

One of the criteria we give is fits your car, fits your child, and will be used correctly each and every time. If all seats fit all cars, why does that need to be mentioned?

Raechel

[bree]

Stupid rules. I want the RF one for my Volvo.

[An Aurora]

I really like how the infant seat if RF'ing in the front seat, while Volvo doesn't have airbag switches and started using airbags in the early 90's :rolleyes:

[Stresch]

I wonder if Volvo would claim these seats are ONLY for their cars? If so, how could they be tested? And wouldn't it suck to not be able to ever take your kid in someone else's car if they didn't have the right brand vehicle?

That didn't really strike me as an unbiased article. Where was the comment from NHTSA?

[joolsplus3]

This would explain why the actual Volvo seats that didn't get released a few years ago didn't make it to market, I guess (they were very odd, I don't feel like googling, but a few of us wanted them, back in the day :whistle:)...but these are just Britaxes that they sell in other countries for other cars, where's the specialization? They need to tell me what they've done with Volvo to make them only Volvo compatible :confused:

Yeah, NHTSA's side of the story would be interesting, wouldn't it?


Anyone read the comments on that blog below the article? I thought guys who read car blogs would be smarter than the average bear about crashes and physics, I'm sorry I was so wrong :eek:

[codex57]

No, guys who post comments on car sites tend to be people with the mental maturity of a 2 yr old. Whether they're in their teens or 60s.

[Pixels]

I wonder if Volvo would claim these seats are ONLY for their cars? If so, how could they be tested? And wouldn't it suck to not be able to ever take your kid in someone else's car if they didn't have the right brand vehicle?
I think that's exactly NHTSA's reasoning. Because you know that if they release this, and it was "Volvo vehicle compatible only," at some point it's going to end up in another manufacturer's vehicle.

Every seat must fit in every car? How do they allow for overhang (or not), handles up or down on infant seat, long/short/rigid buckle stocks, etc? Each vehicle manufacturer has its own standards for seats and seatbelts...just because a seat installs on the test bench doesn't mean it will install in every vehicle on the market.

One of the criteria we give is fits your car, fits your child, and will be used correctly each and every time. If all seats fit all cars, why does that need to be mentioned?

Raechel
I think they oversimplified it when they said every seat has to fit in every car. But that is the intention, that each seat will fit in the vast majority of cars. And that is why seats must be tested with not just LATCH, but seatbelt as well, because not all vehicles have LATCH, let alone in every position.

The Porshe and Mercedes seats were just Britax with colorful covers and some electronic doohickies to turn off the airbags (or not...that was only some of them), but they still fit in other cars. I don't get why these wouldn't fit in other cars :confused: Look like a Babysafe, Two Way Elite, and Monarch to me...

Edit, my bad...definitely multitech... http://www.britax.se/multitech08.htm
Especially considering that the convertible was installed using the seatbelt.

[twinsmom]

Volvo :thumbsup:

NHTSA :thumbsdown:

The convertible looks exactly like my new seats; just swapped out the "Britax" label on the seatback with a "Volvo" label.

[Gena]

Out of curiosity, is the picture of the little boy rear-facing correct? I know that kids RF much longer in parts of Europe than here in the US, but the top of his head is above the head support of the carseat. Is that allowed in Europe? It seems to me that it would be dangerous, especially in the front seat with the wind shield right there behind him.

[twinsmom]

Out of curiosity, is the picture of the little boy rear-facing correct? I know that kids RF much longer in parts of Europe than here in the US, but the top of his head is above the head support of the carseat. Is that allowed in Europe? It seems to me that it would be dangerous, especially in the front seat with the wind shield right there behind him.

Yes, it is correct. They can sit in the seat until the eyes are level with the top of the headrest.:)

[joolsplus3]

Gena, see how the Swedish seat looks in this crash test? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K62Ea8Fs4ng There's no downward rotation like US seats, so it's ok for the head to be up and out of the seat a bit.

[HEVY]

Both seats are RF in the front, I wonder if Volvo disables the airbag if you purchase the seat. I can't imagine RF anyone in the front, let alone putting a child in the front period. But I love those seats.

[Synchro246]

Gov't beauracracy at its finest.

However, this has me thinking. Porsche offers a car seat. I'm pretty sure I remember Mercedes offering their own as well. I didn't know about this rule and I thought those seats were specific to those manufacturers.

Now, I'm wondering what kind of seats they are and if they're any good. Admittedly it's stupid, but a big part of why I got the Recaro was for the racy Recaro name and looks (ok, the looks aren't too racy, but better than most). A Porsche branded seat (even if made by Recaro).... http://forum.e46fanatics.com/images/smilies/drool.gif

The Porche Marathon my friend had a pretty plain cover with a porche patch on it like the college covers. The thing that got me it that it had no LATCH!

[Gena]

Yes, it is correct. They can sit in the seat until the eyes are level with the top of the headrest.:)

Gena, see how the Swedish seat looks in this crash test? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K62Ea8Fs4ng There's no downward rotation like US seats, so it's ok for the head to be up and out of the seat a bit.


Thanks for the clarification! It seemed strange to me to see him with his head so far out of the headrest. I just kept thinking about the windshield breaking and crashing onto his head. But that's just a gut response on my part. Physics isn't one of my strong areas, so I'll trust all of you experts who say it's safe.

[Pixels]

The seat is braced is why it doesn't rotate downwards significantly. In the real vehicle, it's braced on the dashboard. In the video Jools linked, you can see there is something there to brace the seat (simulating the dashboard). Same video from a different angle. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qef1TXZ05Dg&NR=1)

[southpawboston]

Both seats are RF in the front, I wonder if Volvo disables the airbag if you purchase the seat. I can't imagine RF anyone in the front, let alone putting a child in the front period. But I love those seats.

european cars come with switches for the front airbags, so you can have your own control of them. here in the US, the gov't takes the stance that we are all idiots and wouldn't know if they are on or off :rolleyes:. therefore in the US, cars are required to have sensors (which rarely work correctly) to sense the presence of a child in the seat :thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:. since the sensors are notoriously unreliable, it is not recommended to have a carseat in the front. it is quite normal and common for carseats to be used in the front in sweden and other EU countries, and it is considered safe there.

[ketchupqueen]

Okay, so if the compatibility issue is the airbag thing... How about make it an option to brace on the front seat if you're in the back (as long as the car doesn't prohibit it?)

That would solve that problem and make it so the seat could fit "all" cars (yes, there are some it couldn't, but there are also seats that don't fit in other cars because they take up too much room, etc., strikes me as the same kind of thing.)

[TechnoGranola]

Oh boy, someone PLEASE correct some of those uneducated comments! The Canadian says that we have a law all across Canada that kids have to be in a booster until 4'9"/80 lbs/8 years, uh sorry, that is not Canada wide but I'm guessing this guy thinks that Ontario is the only province in Canada. :D And he said most Canadian vehicles have a key to turn off the air bag. Huh? The only Canadian vehicles I've seen with a key for the airbag are moving trucks with only a front seat.

[codex57]

The Porche Marathon my friend had a pretty plain cover with a porche patch on it like the college covers. The thing that got me it that it had no LATCH!

That's disappointing. You'd at least have thought they'd let Porsche Design do a new cover

[Kat_Momof3]

I wish volvo would simply approve the seats for use in other cars... do they not see that every single person on this board with a child who could still rearface in it would be after that gorgeous convertible seat from Sweden?

[bobandjess99]

. here in the US, the gov't takes the stance that we are all idiots and wouldn't know if they are on or off :rolleyes:. .

have you met most people??? I'm not so sure the gov't is wrong on this one.....:whistle:

[southpawboston]

have you met most people??? I'm not so sure the gov't is wrong on this one.....:whistle:

i might have to agree with you there :whistle:. but still, i consider that to be a nanny-device that potentially does more harm than good.

[Maedze]

have you met most people??? I'm not so sure the gov't is wrong on this one.....:whistle:

:ROTFLMAO:


You speak the truth!

[Pixels]

i might have to agree with you there :whistle:. but still, i consider that to be a nanny-device that potentially does more harm than good.

Potentially does more harm than good? Yes, in some cases. Overall? I don't think so.

[southpawboston]

Potentially does more harm than good? Yes, in some cases. Overall? I don't think so.

hard to say.

on the one hand, it's purpose is to prevent airbags from deploying when a child is seated. that's good. would a switch accomplish this? yes.

on the other hand, they rarely work, and there have been cases where light adults seated in the seat trigger the deactivation, rendering the airbag useless. and vice versa-- kids seated in the seat and the airbag is still active. that's bad. would a switch prevent both of these scenarios? yes.

additionally, because of the unreliability, it's not safe to put a child there, simply for the "what if" situation. would a switch overcome this? yes.

therefore, IMHO the sensors are doing more harm than good.

basically, it's not rocket science. vehicle operators have to have a modicum of competence to know if a switch is on or off. else they should not be driving.

[TechnoGranola]

on the other hand, they rarely work, and there have been cases where light adults seated in the seat trigger the deactivation, rendering the airbag useless. and vice versa-- kids seated in the seat and the airbag is still active. that's bad. would a switch prevent both of these scenarios? yes.My Ford Escape was BAD for this. At 105 pounds, the air bag sensor would flicker on then off, on then off, on then off, on then off for the entire trip. They said it was because I was on the "edge" of the limit for when the sensor turned off, at 105 pounds. I was told to ride with sack of potatoes (yes, Ford seriously told me that). They later issued a TSB to lower the threshold weight, the TSB was applied to my vehicle, and it did NOTHING for me, the issue remained the same and the air bag would fluctuate between on and off when I was a passenger. I felt terrible unsafe as I was unsure if I would have an air bag in an accident. Even when I was pregnant and weighed 120 pounds, the light still flickered.

The really sucky thing? An emergency required us to transport our, at the time, 70 pound 9 year old and the air bag turned ON for her, did not fluctuate, never went off. Yet for me, at anywhere between 105 pounds and 125 pounds, it fluctuated between on and off.

Apparently she sits differently enough, or had a different enough body shape, so that the force she placed on the sensor was more than my body. Crazy. And shows how unreliable these sensors are.

[Maedze]

The sensor in our Ford Freestar is supposedly set for 40 pounds. However, Bean the First at more than 40 lbs plus his installed Graco Nautilus (now we're pushing 60 pounds), triggered the disengage. Those sensors are very unreliable.

[southpawboston]

My Ford Escape was BAD for this. At 105 pounds, the air bag sensor would flicker on then off, on then off, on then off, on then off for the entire trip. They said it was because I was on the "edge" of the limit for when the sensor turned off, at 105 pounds. I was told to ride with sack of potatoes (yes, Ford seriously told me that). They later issued a TSB to lower the threshold weight, the TSB was applied to my vehicle, and it did NOTHING for me, the issue remained the same and the air bag would fluctuate between on and off when I was a passenger. I felt terrible unsafe as I was unsure if I would have an air bag in an accident. Even when I was pregnant and weighed 120 pounds, the light still flickered.

The really sucky thing? An emergency required us to transport our, at the time, 70 pound 9 year old and the air bag turned ON for her, did not fluctuate, never went off. Yet for me, at anywhere between 105 pounds and 125 pounds, it fluctuated between on and off.

Apparently she sits differently enough, or had a different enough body shape, so that the force she placed on the sensor was more than my body. Crazy. And shows how unreliable these sensors are.

The sensor in our Ford Freestar is supposedly set for 40 pounds. However, Bean the First at more than 40 lbs plus his installed Graco Nautilus (now we're pushing 60 pounds), triggered the disengage. Those sensors are very unreliable.

so would both of you agree that a simple toggle switch would be far superior to these idiotic sensors? <sarcasm> but nooooooooo.... that would be unsafe in the eyes of whoever mandates those sensors... we can't rely on humans, now, can we... </sarcasm>.

[An Aurora]

Ha, yeah instead we have all these people who know they have a sensor and think it's ok to put baby's carseat in the front seat since, you know, the air bag is turned off and all :rolleyes:.

[Kat_Momof3]

oh yeah... I don't know what the sensor in dh's car is (2007 cobalt) set to, but it doesn't take much to activate it (it automatically isn't until there is a certain amount of weight)... but I know that either of my boys, once they were over 50-60lbs, in the lightest (cosco high rise/ambassador/auto) backless booster on the market could activate it.

At least there is a very noticeable OFF/ON set of signals on the front console that let you know if it's on... and boy is it easy to notice... they are a good 3/4-1" apart.

Obviously, I wouldn't put a child in the front unless I had to anyway... but aside from worrying about it failing, I think it's just silly that in such a small car, they don't just provide a keyhole for disabling it when needed, like what I've seen shown in European small cars.

[UlrikeDG]

NHTSA has mandated that child seats cannot be vehicle-specific... every seat must fit every car

Two words: Century Breverra.

[bobandjess99]

Two words: Century Breverra.

lol...or it's fresh,younger sibling, the Britax Frontier.
seriously? who puts the beltpath THERE???:rolleyes:

[joolsplus3]

Oh, my, there is NO comparison, the Frontier is a breeze compared to the Breverra.

NHTSA's response on CPSPList is this, btw...

"To clarify some erroneous statements which have appeared regarding child restraints produced in conjunction with Volvo:

NHTSA's FMVSS 213 standardizes the means of attachment, not fit. More specifically:

Standard 213 does standardize the means of attachment of child restraints, and in that way, prohibits vehicle-specific seats. The requirement is for child seats to be capable of attaching to the vehicle seat by a seat belt and by LATCH. The restraint can't attach only by a special mechanism that only specific vehicles have. However, if they are able to attach by a seat belt and by LATCH they can have a supplementary (vehicle-specific) attachment mechanism in addition to those universal means of attachment.

The reason for requiring a standardized means of attachment is to reduce the likelihood of misuse. We want to avoid the situation of a consumer acquiring a vehicle-specific child seat that can't attach universally and then trying to use it in the wrong vehicle. "

But what I'm not understanding then is what special attachment situation are these 'Volvo' Britaxes utilizing? They need a belt or LATCH, so.... color me confused until someone spells this out for me....

[Jeanum]

I'm confused as well, and wondering if these Volvo carseats utilize something special to deactivate the front passenger side airbag, similar to those Porsche carseats that had a key or connector of some sort designed to plug into certain specific Porsche 2-seater cars to deactivate the front airbag?

[arly1983]

The sensor in our Ford Freestar is supposedly set for 40 pounds. However, Bean the First at more than 40 lbs plus his installed Graco Nautilus (now we're pushing 60 pounds), triggered the disengage. Those sensors are very unreliable.

Count my Ford Freestart in too. That sensor drives me bonkers.


What REALLY irks me was that I HAD to drive 3.5 hrs with Seth in the car with only me the other day. It would have helped me tremendously to be able to see his screaming butt without have to focus through two mirrors while driving but I didn't trust the sensor so he stayed in the back.

[bree]

I know this is probably a stupid question, but why is Volvo allowed to make boosters but not other seats? I know they have a booster available through Volvo dealers, and I saw it mentioned in some list of 10 best boosters, or something like that. So why is a booster okay but not a harnessed seat? I know the booster seat is not "installed" in the car so to speak, so is that the difference?

[atsuydam]

Oh, my, there is NO comparison, the Frontier is a breeze compared to the Breverra.

NHTSA's response on CPSPList is this, btw...

"To clarify some erroneous statements which have appeared regarding child restraints produced in conjunction with Volvo:

NHTSA's FMVSS 213 standardizes the means of attachment, not fit. More specifically:

Standard 213 does standardize the means of attachment of child restraints, and in that way, prohibits vehicle-specific seats. The requirement is for child seats to be capable of attaching to the vehicle seat by a seat belt and by LATCH. The restraint can't attach only by a special mechanism that only specific vehicles have. However, if they are able to attach by a seat belt and by LATCH they can have a supplementary (vehicle-specific) attachment mechanism in addition to those universal means of attachment.

The reason for requiring a standardized means of attachment is to reduce the likelihood of misuse. We want to avoid the situation of a consumer acquiring a vehicle-specific child seat that can't attach universally and then trying to use it in the wrong vehicle. "

But what I'm not understanding then is what special attachment situation are these 'Volvo' Britaxes utilizing? They need a belt or LATCH, so.... color me confused until someone spells this out for me....

I may be wrong here but it says seat belt AND LATCH. Is is possible the seats DON'T use latch? If it is the MT I read through the instruction manual recently and didn't remember seeing any instructions for LATCH or ISOFIX.

[atsuydam]

I know this is probably a stupid question, but why is Volvo allowed to make boosters but not other seats? I know they have a booster available through Volvo dealers, and I saw it mentioned in some list of 10 best boosters, or something like that. So why is a booster okay but not a harnessed seat? I know the booster seat is not "installed" in the car so to speak, so is that the difference?

And my above post may explain why boosters are okay but not the infant or convertible.

[spryngtree]

I just did a mini rant on why carseats and car manufacturers are so out of sync. Personally I'd love to see a car specific carseat available for every car, it doesn't have to replace the universal ones, but since its the law to use them I really think they should be able to be purchased with the car. I suspect a lot more misuse occurs from people trying to put carseats that don't fit well in their car in than would happen with people moving their car brand specific carseat to another car. At least in the latter situation it would clearly say what cars it was to be used in. I know so many people who have bought a carseat for their car and it didn't fit the right way so they put it in incorrectly instead. (things like using the latch connectors on parts that weren't latch anchors or just passing the seat belt around the front of the seat like it was a booster). I don't think a lot of people check to see what car seats fit their cars they just go buy a cute carseat or a cheap one or whatever their criteria is, and then if it doesn't install according to the manual in their car they put it in however it will go in.

[snowbird25ca]

"

But what I'm not understanding then is what special attachment situation are these 'Volvo' Britaxes utilizing? They need a belt or LATCH, so.... color me confused until someone spells this out for me....

My guess would be the rf'ing tether situation. Volvo has rf'ing tether anchors on the front seats whereas other North American vehicles don't. Perhaps Volvo is only willing to back their dedicated anchors for rf tethering of these seats?

[Pixels]

For the RFing convertible, it could be the footprop. The current FMVSS test bench/sled has no floor to put a footprop on. I don't know if the infant only seat would have the footprop or not.

I have no idea why they wouldn't be able to get the booster approved.

[luv2bfishin]

Volvo introduces ERF car seats for their vehicles , that can accomodate children up to 6 yrs old, rear facing.

But NHTSA has banned its sales in the USA!!

http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/press/releases/2009/child_car_seats.shtml


http://www.allgov.com/ViewNews/NHTSA_Stops_Volvo_from_Introducing_Advanced_Child_ Car_Seats_90425

Grandpa is not happy about this!!

http://www.joelsjourney.org/

[Calideedle]

The NHTSA recommends that children only need to ride in the backseat, rearward-facing up to the age of 1. According to U.S. rules, toddlers and older children should ride in backseat forward-facing toddler seats or booster seats.

:thumbsdown::thumbsdown:

[An Aurora]

That's not true at all. NHTSA recommends ERF'ing.

[NannyMom]

Grandpa, I understand why you're not happy. But it's still a limited number of children the seat can help (though yes, saving 1 child is better than 0) if the seat can only be used in 1 manufacturer's car.

The ERF seat looks alot like the ones people are importing now. The currently imported seats are able to be used in non-volvo cars (because they are no Volvo made). So, why can't Volvo make these seats to be used in any car?

With the new Graco seat coming out, America is headed in the right direction. Maybe if it sells really well, other seat manufacturers will follow suit. (DO you hear me Britax, First Years and SKJP?!)

[Mama Jo]

The NHTSA recommends that children only need to ride in the backseat, rearward-facing up to the age of 1. According to U.S. rules, toddlers and older children should ride in backseat forward-facing toddler seats or booster seats.

:thumbsdown: What about the new AAP recommendations??

According to Volvo, children have weaker necks and their heads are proportionately larger than adults’. When children ride rearward-facing, the impact on a child during a collision is spread out.

(Bolding mine.) Yeah... because Volvo is the only one who's ever stated that. :rolleyes:

[An Aurora]

:thumbsdown: What about the new AAP recommendations??




NHTSA writes the CPST training course. Trust me, they promote ERF. ;)

[Pixels]

National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has banned the sale of these child seats in the U.S. because federal laws stipulate that child seats must fit in all car models and cannot be vehicle-specific.
This isn't quite true. Federal laws stipulate that the carseat must attach to the vehicle in the following ways: lap belt only, lap belt plus top tether, lower anchors only, lower anchors plust top tether. The intent is that the restraints be as universal as possible, but we know that not every carseat fits in every vehicle.

[joolsplus3]

Just bumping this up due to renewed interest. The threads maybe be merged at some point to keep things together.

[LuciaBella]

What I don't get is why they have installed the seats in the front passenger with airbags...??

[kmcenery]

Mods please let me know if I can not post it. i will take it down.

This is a c&p from the cps list on yahoo.


I am posting this message on behalf of my colleague, Carole Guzzetta.
Please direct comments to her directly at carole.guzzetta@....



To clarify some erroneous statements which have appeared regarding child
restraints produced in conjunction with Volvo:

NHTSA's FMVSS 213 standardizes the means of attachment, not fit. More
specifically:

Standard 213 does standardize the means of attachment of child restraints, and
in that way, prohibits vehicle-specific seats. The requirement is for child
seats to be capable of attaching to the vehicle seat by a seat belt and by
LATCH. The restraint can't attach only by a special mechanism that only
specific vehicles have. However, if they are able to attach by a seat belt and
by LATCH they can have a supplementary (vehicle-specific) attachment mechanism
in addition to those universal means of attachment.

The reason for requiring a standardized means of attachment is to reduce the
likelihood of misuse. We want to avoid the situation of a consumer acquiring a
vehicle-specific child seat that can't attach universally and then trying to use
it in the wrong vehicle.

Hope this information is helpful. Thank you.

[April]

The ERF seat looks alot like the ones people are importing now. The currently imported seats are able to be used in non-volvo cars (because they are no Volvo made). So, why can't Volvo make these seats to be used in any car?


Um, yeah, that Volvo seat IS a multitech. I would need some serious proof to believe its not:

Volvo:
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o258/asutton233/Car%20Seat%20Extravaganza/VolvoSeat.jpg
Multitech:
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o258/asutton233/Car%20Seat%20Extravaganza/Multitech.jpg

And I strongly suspect that the "Volvo" booster is a Monarch:
Volvo:
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o258/asutton233/Car%20Seat%20Extravaganza/VolvoBooster.jpg
Monarch:
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o258/asutton233/Car%20Seat%20Extravaganza/Monarch.gif

So as sad as it continues to be that we don't have Swedish seats in North America, I don't think that this is "new" news. Volvo tried to rig up a Multitech so it'd be the most rockin' US convertable in the country, and tried to make it somewhat brand-specific so they could corner the market with the only US seat that rf's so long, and "they" didn't let it fly. If Volvo is so gung-ho about promoting child passenger safety in the US, why not just slap a Volvo label on the multitech, and market it for use in all US cars?

[Mama Jo]

I was thinking the same thing... and now that you've put up the pics, I can't even tell a difference between them. Even the buckle looks identical.

I wonder if Britax designed them for Volvo like they did with the FPSVD??

[horsesitaly]

There was an article in our TV guide (strange place for a car seat article it seems lol) and it said that "Volvo Cars worked closely with Britax Romer, world-renowned in child safety equipment." So I don't doubt they are the same seats! They picture the infant seat and the booster. This is in the May 2009 R&R TV AFN, Cable, and Satellite. web site is http://www.rrmagazine.com Not sure how the web site is, if it has the mag on line the article starts on May 2009 Shoppers News Mediterranian 5 (like an advertising insert, not the actual page 5 lol).

[UlrikeDG]

With the new Graco seat coming out, America is headed in the right direction. Maybe if it sells really well, other seat manufacturers will follow suit. (DO you hear me Britax, First Years and SKJP?!)

Meanwhile, Volvo had a RF to 40 lb seat back in 2001 in Europe! Volvo owners weren't allowed to use the seat in the US. Now Volvo has a RF to 55 lb. Maybe 8-10 years from now, Graco, et al will follow suit. Until then, I guess I'll take comfort in the knowledge that all seats currently sold in the US are "universal" and fit in all vehicles. Or whatever. :rolleyes:

[CPSDarren]

I think we aren't getting the full story about the Volvo-specific fitment...

http://carseatblog.com/?p=2233

[lenats31]

Volvo and Britax in Europe have tried to join forces and have their EERF legal in the USA. However NHTSA have stopped them. Read here:

http://www.allgov.com/ViewNews/NHTSA_Stops_Volvo_from_Introducing_Advanced_Child_ Car_Seats_90425

The seats are.

1 Volvo branded Britax infant seat.
1 Volvo branded Britax Multi-Tech RF 20-55lbs
1 Volvo branded Britax booster seat (not Kidfix)

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=146267#5

http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/press/releases/2009/child_car_seats.shtml

Lena

[Judi]

Thanks for the link! Would love to have a multi tech here soon!

[CelticLabyrinth]

See, why can't the modify the design to fit all US seats? I mean, don't they fit most US cars anyway??? I'm not sure what the problem is.

I'm not sure faulting the NHTSA is the right move- if volvo would work with britax to ensure the seats fit all cars there shouldn't be a problem. Unless there is some reason for it.

Personally I do not want to see seats coming into the market designed to just fit one car.

[Momof4Girls]

Personally I do not want to see seats coming into the market designed to just fit one car.

I don't know, with Chrysler being sold to Fiat, talk of GM being sold to Fiat (at least last week there was), and Ford owning so many brands anyway, what harm could there be, so long as a Fiat seat fit a Fiat car (whether it's Chrysler, GM, Fiat itself, whatever), a Ford seat fit a Ford seat (Lincoln/Mercury/Jaguar/etc)?

ETA:

And I would rather be able to buy a seat designed to be used in my specific car and have a greater ease of use factor (and, thus, less misuse). Yeah, it could be a pain, but it's something to factor in when purchasing a car and planning, ultimately, to have a family.

[Stresch]

What if you need to rent a car? What if you need to go somewhere last minute in someone else's car? What if you decide you want a new car? What if someone else needs to pick your kid up from daycare?

I can think of a lot of situations where you might end up in a different car and not know what brand it will be. That said, I strongly suspect that being Volvo specific is a marketing thing. Maybe they don't want to have it approved for use in any other car because it doesn't help their marketshare.

I don't understand why so many people would jump to the conclusion that a company is looking out for the safety of kids rather than profit, but the government agency charged with making sure carseats are safe is being needlessly restrictive. I want NTSHA to make sure that carseats really are safe and useable.

[Mama Jo]

The thing with these particular seats though is that they appear to be exactly the same as the Britax versions. Sure, it's a marketing thing... but it seems silly. Just buy the Britax seat if this is what you want. Then you can use it in your car, the sitter's car, DH's car... and you don't have to worry about it not working. So the Volvo brand might be easier to use in a Volvo car, but IMO, it's screaming for misuse - for the people who will inevitably try to use it somehow, someway, in a non-Volvo car.

[Pixels]

I don't know, with Chrysler being sold to Fiat, talk of GM being sold to Fiat (at least last week there was), and Ford owning so many brands anyway, what harm could there be, so long as a Fiat seat fit a Fiat car (whether it's Chrysler, GM, Fiat itself, whatever), a Ford seat fit a Ford seat (Lincoln/Mercury/Jaguar/etc)?

I wouldn't. I'm quite happy with the near-universal systems we have. I would not like to have to take two vehicles when my Dad comes to visit because even though he has a 6-passenger vehicle, I drive a Honda and he drives a Ford, therefore my carseat wouldn't work in his truck.

Or when we go on vacation and rent a vehicle, or use a relative's. Just counting our personal vehicles and those of family that we fly to visit at least once a year, there are 5 different makers (Honda, GM (Pontiac and Saturn), Ford, Toyota, Hyundai). No WAY am I going to buy 5 carseats for one kid just to have a seat on vacation.

Large families with 4-7 kids in seats would have a very hard time vehicle shopping. (They already do, just finding a vehicle to fit them all.) If you added in the restriction of staying with the same brand (or brand family) vehicle that they already had, or buy new seats for all, that would make it that much more difficult. Even an average family with 2.4 kids doesn't need the added expense of outfitting new carseats if they get a new vehicle.

If carseats were vehicle-specific or vehicle-brand/maker specific, you'd end up with a lot of people using carseats in vehicles that they were never intended to fit. There's already enough complication, misuse, and just plain creativity with the two attachment systems we already have.

[UlrikeDG]

I would treat the vehicle-specific seats like built-ins: they're great when you're driving THAT vehicle, but you still need spares if you have a 2nd car or whatever. That's OK with me.

[An Aurora]

I'm still not sure what makes these seats only fit in Volvos. I'm betting that the problem is that Volvo knows these seats fit since Sweden has the same seats and the same cars with no problem, but who knows if it's been tested in a Ford, or a Dodge, or a Chevy, or a Honda, etc. It would be Volvo's responsibility to test in all those cars, right?

I don't see how these seats are any different than the "Ferarri" CarGo, or the "Porsche" seats. They are just regular seats with different covers. Granted, the Ferarri and Porsche seats were already US approved seats, but I would be one happy camper if we had a 55 lb seat in the US.

[UlrikeDG]

It may be that the seat is identical to a Britax or Roemer seat that is designed to fit in many vehicles. It is also possible that the shell is similar to another Britax/Roemer seat, but that the installation system is different. The previous generation of Volvo seats installed with an ISOFIX base which the seat then clicked into. The installation system included two tethers which fastened toward the front of the vehicle, an attachment method which is probably not compatible in most other vehicle brands.

Please note that other manufacturers have released vehicle-branded child restraints in the US (BMW & Porche come to mind). In these past cases, the seats were re-branded Britax seats. In at least one of these, the infant carrier seat had an airbag off-switch built in. The off switch was only compatible with the specific vehicle make, but the installation system was identical to the Britax seat it was based off of.

[An Aurora]

Could those two tethers use D-rings instead of designated RF tether anchors?

[kmcenery]

I think that maybe It does not use LATCH or a seat belt but something else to put it in the car and thats why it can not pass in the us. And why it can only be used by volvo.

[lenats31]

What I don't get is why they have installed the seats in the front passenger with airbags...??

European cars have switch for the airbag in front. It is not permitted to place a child restraint of any kind in front of an active airbag.:)

The EERF seat IS the Britax Multi-tech - just rebranded.

Each European restraint comes with a car compatible list. The "problem" is that it sounds as if this seat is suitable for Volvo cars only. The truth is that the car compatible list is ......endless.....

It can be installed with lap shoulder belt (Regent long route). As far as I know the top tether strap is not law in the USA.

The Britax Multi-Tech RF tethering:

Front seat runners without tether brackets:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f223/lenats31/april2009d004.jpg

Using tether brackets:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f223/lenats31/Britax%20Multi-Tech%20car%20Seat/277.jpg

Front seat bights:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f223/lenats31/Britax%20Multi-Tech%20car%20Seat/Juni2008C029.jpg

FF installation:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f223/lenats31/Britax%20Multi-Tech%20car%20Seat/273.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f223/lenats31/Britax%20Multi-Tech%20car%20Seat/275.jpg

The parents of The little boy Joel who broke his neck in a frontal crash at city speed at 15 months old and 33 lbs was given permission by NHTSA to legally import and use this seat for Joel. They can be imported legally if you have a child with disabillites that call for RFing past 35 lbs. without regard to a car comp. list.

[An Aurora]

I think that maybe It does not use LATCH or a seat belt but something else to put it in the car and thats why it can not pass in the us. And why it can only be used by volvo.

I don't think so. In Sweden they use ISOFIX or seatbelts.

Lenats, thank you for the pictures!!!! That answers my previous question about the RF tether issue. It seems that it doesn't even use the RF TAs that Volvo provides, hence it's not a Volvo-specific install.

[Pixels]

I'm still not sure what makes these seats only fit in Volvos. I'm betting that the problem is that Volvo knows these seats fit since Sweden has the same seats and the same cars with no problem, but who knows if it's been tested in a Ford, or a Dodge, or a Chevy, or a Honda, etc. It would be Volvo's responsibility to test in all those cars, right?

No, there is actually NO testing of carseats in actual cars required to be certified in the US. Carseats are tested on a test sled bench, which is supposed to simulate the back seat of a vehicle. The gov't figures if it works on the bench, it should work in most vehicles. There is no guarantee of compatibility.

A big part of the reason that we do not have any seats that require foot props or tethering towards the front of the vehicle is that there is no "floor" or anything toward the front of the "vehicle" on the test bench sled.

[CelticLabyrinth]

A big part of the reason that we do not have any seats that require foot props or tethering towards the front of the vehicle is that there is no "floor" or anything toward the front of the "vehicle" on the test bench sled.

Sounds like that is something which needs to be changed. Now, that would be a great thing to complain about to the NHTSA and write articles about instead of focusing on them not letting poor ole volvo market car seats only for their vehicle.

[Stresch]

Now, that would be a great thing to complain about to the NHTSA and write articles about instead of focusing on them not letting poor ole volvo market car seats only for their vehicle.

Yes. This.

[UlrikeDG]

Sounds like that is something which needs to be changed. Now, that would be a great thing to complain about to the NHTSA and write articles about instead of focusing on them not letting poor ole volvo market car seats only for their vehicle.

Yes. This.

What, we can't do both?

[lenats31]

The MT does not use LATCH or Isofix. It is a belt installed seat that installs pretty much the same way that you would install a Marathon RF with LATCH. seatbelt route is the same (through the front of the seat)

All RF seats in Europe do not have a floor either when being tested. They MUST pass all tests without the use of the footprop or leaning against a front seat or dashboard.

Here is the comp. list:

http://www.britax.se/pdffiler/BB0-703-00%20Multi-Tech%20Fordonslista%202007-08.pdf

Darren mentioned something about mechanisems that may not have been approved of yet. I can think of one: The footprop. No US car seat has this. The MT has it. This could could be a big part of the reason NHTSA denied this seat approval for sale in the USA.

The tethering is the same as that on the US RF convertiables. Only that the MT needs both front seat runners or both sides of the front seat. Instead of one.

SO it could very well be the footprop that caused the denial.

Lena

[BookMama]

SO it could very well be the footprop that caused the denial.

Lena

I'd say that's unlikely, as there was a U.S. infant seat a few years back that had a foot prop, and it was approved according to the FMVSS regulations. (It was the Baby Safe by Britax.)

[twinsmom]

The parents of The little boy Joel who broke his neck in a frontal crash at city speed at 15 months old and 33 lbs was given permission by NHTSA to legally import and use this seat for Joel. They can be imported legally if you have a child with disabillites that call for RFing past 35 lbs. without regard to a car comp. list.

This is why I'm skeptical about the whole "Swedish seats are incompatible with US cars" argument. If the govt will allow the seats under certain medical conditions, do they really have the fear that the seat is unsafe or incompatible with US cars, or is it more of a political issue.

[CelticLabyrinth]

This is why I'm skeptical about the whole "Swedish seats are incompatible with US cars" argument. If the govt will allow the seats under certain medical conditions, do they really have the fear that the seat is unsafe or incompatible with US cars, or is it more of a political issue.

When a child gets a waver basically it says the child cannot be safely restrained in any seat on the market. Which allows parents to choose to import seats- but that doesn't mean they are safe in those seats. I believe (although I'm not certain) that the waver also allows the child to be completely unrestrained in the vehicle.

[UlrikeDG]

I'd say that's unlikely, as there was a U.S. infant seat a few years back that had a foot prop, and it was approved according to the FMVSS regulations. (It was the Baby Safe by Britax.)

Is it possible that the BabySafe passed FMVSS without the foot, but Britax required it anyway?

[Stresch]

The foot prop on the BabySafe was optional for use.

[Pixels]

The MT does not use LATCH or Isofix. It is a belt installed seat that installs pretty much the same way that you would install a Marathon RF with LATCH. seatbelt route is the same (through the front of the seat)
Not having LATCH is sufficient to fail FMVSS testing. It's required on harnessed American seats.

Is it possible that the BabySafe passed FMVSS without the foot, but Britax required it anyway?

Yes, this.

[BookMama]

Is it possible that the BabySafe passed FMVSS without the foot, but Britax required it anyway?

The foot prop on the BabySafe was optional for use.

Good points!

[CPSDarren]

This is why I'm skeptical about the whole "Swedish seats are incompatible with US cars" argument. If the govt will allow the seats under certain medical conditions, do they really have the fear that the seat is unsafe or incompatible with US cars, or is it more of a political issue.

It's no different with certain medications or medical treatments. If someone has no other alternative, they may be able to get an exemption to have a procedure or medication that has not been tested or approved by the FDA. That doesn't mean it is safe or unsafe, it just means they are giving special permission in a case where they may have no other suitable option.

It is political to some extent. Of course the government could basically say that anyone can import any child seat not tested or approved to our standards. Then why not allow domestic models to be sold without passing certification requirements too. Regulations and standards do serve a very important purpose. In some cases they do need an update. In other cases, companies simply choose not to have a model certified because they know it won't pass or feel it would be too expensive based on the projected sales. That's also not the fault of the government.

[twinsmom]

It is political to some extent. Of course the government could basically say that anyone can import any child seat not tested or approved to our standards. Then why not allow domestic models to be sold without passing certification requirements too. Regulations and standards do serve a very important purpose.
Yes, but I think there is a difference between a seat not passing any standards vs. passing another reputable standard. It would be nice if there was some reciprocity between the US and EU standards.

I stand corrected about the medical waiver.:o

[southpawboston]

Yeah... because Volvo is the only one who's ever stated that. :rolleyes:

yeah... but volvo has known this longer than this internet forum, and has considerably more clout behind what they say.

[joolsplus3]

yeah... but volvo has known this longer than this internet forum, and has considerably more clout behind what they say.

I don't think this forum invented the fact that necks and spines take longer to develop and younger children should rearface because of it. Neither did Volvo. They should not be credited with knowing the truths of physiology, rather it would be more credible to say something like 'medical experts' are behind it all, no?

[southpawboston]

I don't think this forum invented the fact that necks and spines take longer to develop and younger children should rearface because of it. Neither did Volvo. They should not be credited with knowing the truths of physiology, rather it would be more credible to say something like 'medical experts' are behind it all, no?

well, medical experts may know mor about developmental physiology, but regarding the safety relationship between RF and children's musculo-skeletal development, i'd actually say volvo is more qualified to comment than medical experts, as they are the ones that did all that research before anyone else.

[UlrikeDG]

:thumbsdown: What about the new AAP recommendations??

It didn't turn out to be new AAP recommendations (http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=78758). It was just a press release about a study we already knew about that was (understandably) miss interpreted an official policy change.

(Bolding mine.) Yeah... because Volvo is the only one who's ever stated that. :rolleyes:

The article doesn't imply that Volvo is the only one or even that Volvo is the most preeminent expert on child safety. The author is merely citing her source for this article, which was Volvo. If I interviewed Julie for something I was writing, I might say, "Some parents prefer for their children to ride in the trunk, but Joolsplus3 says that's not the safest place for kids." Sure, there may be dozens of other "more credible" sources for the same information, but I got it from Jools, so that's who gets the credit in my article.

[lenats31]

Look here:

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/04/27/followup-nhtsa-to-allow-vehicle-specific-child-seats-after-all?icid=sphere_blogsmith_inpage_autoblog

Lena

[Pixels]

The article is implying something that isn't true. NHTSA hasn't said anything that would lead a careful reader (who had read the entire thing of what NHTSA said) to believe that they will allow vehicle-specific carseats. What they said is that they basically want to expand on their current ease-of-use rating system, and have the vehicle manufacturers recommend some seats (at various price points) that work well in their vehicles. They're talking about using the already-available, universal carseats to do this. They didn't say anything about changing the standards to allow vehicle-specific mounting systems.

[TechnoGranola]

Cars used in Sweden are virtually the same as cars used in US, Canada, Germany, Australia etc. In reality, it's very rare to have a Swedish seat not fit in a vehicle. Exceptions might be if trying to install a large seat in a very tiny car or installing a seat in the middle rear where the car has a large "tunnel" (foot prop might not work properly). It's simply very rare for a Swedish seat not to fit into a car of any nationality.Someone said earlier that the reason certain Swedish seats could never be approved here is because they could only be installed with the seat belt and not with LATCH. And NHTSA requires a seat to install with both. So, it doesn't seem like a fitment issue per say, but rather that the seats (some? all? at least the Volvo ones in question) don't offer LATCH as an additional install method as per the NHTSA.

[UlrikeDG]

I'm pretty sure the previous generation of Volvo seats could be installed with LATCh/ISOFIX only. They had an ISOFIX base which was installed first, then the seat (infant or convertible) was secured to that. As far as I could tell, there was no seatbelt installation option. The new generation isn't due for release for a few more months. We'll have to wait and see how they are installed.

[TechnoGranola]

I'm pretty sure the previous generation of Volvo seats could be installed with LATCh/ISOFIX only. They had an ISOFIX base which was installed first, then the seat (infant or convertible) was secured to that. As far as I could tell, there was no seatbelt installation option. The new generation isn't due for release for a few more months. We'll have to wait and see how they are installed.Ah okay. I was thinking of the MultiTech when I posted that as members here have said the MultiTech can only be installed with seat belt.

I guess if something can only be installed with LATCH/ISOFIX, then it also wouldn't meet NHTSA criteria since it needs to be able to be installed with the seat belt as well, correct?

[Pixels]

Right.

[Wineaux]

And you aren't going to see seats that RF beyond 40 lbs in the US until NHTSA certifies LATCH beyond 40 lbs! Look at the new Graco MyWay65... It has a 40 lb RF weight limit. Why that number? Because that is the max weight allowed by LATCH, and in order to pass FMVSS 213 standards the seat has to be usable in all installation methods per the NHTSA memo. LATCH is the real troublemaker here, and always has been. As a standard it totally sucks. There has been poor implementation and it has not had any substantiative revision since it was introduced. It needs to be certified to 65 lbs soon!

[BookMama]

And you aren't going to see seats that RF beyond 40 lbs in the US until NHTSA certifies LATCH beyond 40 lbs! Look at the new Graco MyWay65... It has a 40 lb RF weight limit. Why that number? Because that is the max weight allowed by LATCH, and in order to pass FMVSS 213 standards the seat has to be usable in all installation methods per the NHTSA memo.

I'm confused by this. First, NHTSA doesn't set or certify LATCH limits ... automobile manufacturers set their own limits. There are a number of manufacturers with limits greater than 40 lbs (Ford, for instance). Second, if what you say is true, how could we have seats that FF past 40 lbs, which more and more current seats (and nearly all newer models) do? :confused: