Help with TF in Subaru

[fionasmom]

We need advice on installing a TF in a 98 Subaru Legacy (brighton, no LATCH) in the center position. We would really like the center position, as it's an older Subaru.

The only way to install in the center position RF'ing is to twist 4 times (super tight, no movement). If we twist 3 times, it's quite tight, but does move a bit. If we install with a towel underneath, it get a tight fit with three twists, but we really don't need the incline.

So my questions are:
1) Confirm that four twists are not allowed, even though the strap is so long.
2) Can we put a two by four board underneath the car seat to reduce the number of twists? How is a board any different than a towel (which compresses so much)?
3) Has anyone been able to get shorter buckles installed by Subaru or get a LATCH installed in an older Subaru?
4) Any other suggestions for car seats that would work better in our Subaru in the center position (note, we are in Canada).

Thanks!

[Pixels]

1) Four twists are not allowed. The maximum is three full twists. Some movement is allowed, as long as it is less than one inch at the belt path.
2) No 2x4s. A towel or pool noodle is lightweight. If it comes out during a crash, it won't hurt anyone as it's flying around the car.
3) You cannot get the lower anchors retrofitted, but you can get top tethers retrofitted. You don't need them just yet as you are RFing, but you will need it when you go FFing. If you tell me the year of your vehicle, and if it's a sedan or a wagon, I can tell you the part numbers.
4) No help from me on that one, sorry.

[canmom]

1) Confirm that four twists are not allowed, even though the strap is so long.

As far as I know you can only twist 3 times.

2) Can we put a two by four board underneath the car seat to reduce the number of twists? How is a board any different than a towel (which compresses so much)?

I wouldn't, the recommendation is pool noodles or a tightly rolled towel.

3) Has anyone been able to get shorter buckles installed by Subaru or get a LATCH installed in an older Subaru?

I'm not sure about buckle stalks but I doubt it. I know you can't get LATCH retrofitted.

4) Any other suggestions for car seats that would work better in our Subaru in the center position (note, we are in Canada).

You can try one of the new 3 in 1's with the 35lb rfing weight limit... the Radian XT also rf to 35lbs.

Can you try a different location in your vehicle? Have you tried getting a tech to help you?

[pastrygirl]

I have an '01 Forester and was not able to get my RF Marathon installed in the center for the same reason -- I needed more than 3 twists. I had to move it outboard. I was able to install it in the center FF, though, when he outgrew it RF. That was a relief.

[fionasmom]

Thanks for the advice so far! The car is 98 Subaru Legacy (brighton) wagon.

Does anyone have the link to why only three are allowed (husband would rather have car seat in centre position with four twists, rather than in the outboard position, as it's an older car). It is super tight, so we will re-try the install with three twists and a towel and see if it only moves 1".

We do have the top tether anchor tethers for when we install FF, but we are trying to get the install RF'ing.

We purchased at TRU, so I will go into there and get the technician to check.

Thanks!

[Jeanum]

There's a section about this with stats from an actual study of seatbelt strength and the effects of twisting in the CPST training manual, and I believe another member or two has a direct link to that section of the training manual and can probably post it for you. Each time the seatbelt is twisted, it essentially weakens the belt, and 3 twists are considered the maximum acceptable amount.

Also, here's a specific quote from the Subaru section of the LATCH manual about twisting, specifying the limit is 3 twists of the buckle stalk portion of the seatbelt:


Special note about CR (child restraint) installation with a seatbelt:

Subaru owner's manuals caution against twisting seatbelts, referring to using the belt to restrain a person directly. Subaru has officially approved the twisting of the rear seatbelt BUCKLE webbing (not the lap or shoulder belt webbing sections) a maximum of 3 twists (no more than 3) if necessary to shorten the buckle end and improve the installation of a CR.

[Defrost]

Does anyone have the link to why only three are allowed (husband would rather have car seat in centre position with four twists, rather than in the outboard position, as it's an older car). It is super tight, so we will re-try the install with three twists and a towel and see if it only moves 1".

http://www.carseat.org/ Click "technical" and then "twisted vehicle belt." Here's what it says:


Vehicle owner’s manuals usually warn against twisting vehicle belts. The primary reason is that belts work best if they distribute force over a wider area, and twisting belts reduces the area available for distributing force on the occupant. Another reason is that twisted belts may not slide through a latchplate, preventing snug fit around an occupant or secure installation of a CR.
Twisting belts also reduces webbing strength. Laboratory tests conducted by IMMI Child Restraints in 1998-99 showed that the average strength of vehicle belt webbing, pulled until failure, gradually reduced depending on the number of full twists: 1=6%, 2=11%, 3=20%, 6=40%. When the webbing was soaked in apple juice or cola, the strength degraded slightly more than untreated webbing. When other samples were twisted and later untwisted, the webbing returned to normal strength. Vehicle belt webbing is strong enough to withstand pull tests of over 6000 lb of force. This is 3 to 4 times the strength needed to restrain a 60-lb child in a severe crash. Based on these data, CR experts advise that up to three full twists in belt webbing will not reduce its strength enough to risk failure when restraining a child in a CR.
There are two situations that call for twisting vehicle belt webbing (up to three times) so that the CR can be secured properly. For lap-only belts, the locking latchplate may be resting on the CR at an angle, so that it does not stay locked. By turning the latchplate over once (a half twist) and inserting it into the buckle, the locking bar will be held in place and the belt will not slip. For lap-shoulder belts, the buckle location might need to be shifted to allow the buckled belt to be tightened. This can often be done by “shortening” the webbing attached to the buckle with one or two full twists. These techniques will not work if the webbing at the buckle end is very long or if the buckle is attached to a stiff cable. If the webbing is supported by a plastic sleeve, the caregiver may carefully cut through the sleeve and remove it. (6/08)

We purchased at TRU, so I will go into there and get the technician to check.

Just make sure the tech is certified - it seems to be fairly uncommon for TRU. :)

Oh, one more thing about the board - the concern is not only that it could come out and become a projectile, but also that its weight means it would apply more force to the carseat in a crash.

[Kashi]

We purchased at TRU, so I will go into there and get the technician to check.

Thanks!

Just a note on this. Even if you can find a certified tech at a TRU, they will not be able to work as a tech while at TRU - they can offer verbal advice, but cannot check the installation of a seat or install one, etc.

[momtoirs]

We have a 00 Impreza and had both a Snugride and a Britax Roundabout installed RF tightly in the center position. I think we twisted 3 times, but I honestly don't remember, its been a couple of years now.

Tina