Question 7 yr old at 78# , law says she needs, carseat tech says no?? [Archive] - Car Seat.Org - Carseat, Vehicle & Child Passenger Safety Forums

Unregistered

03-13-2009, 03:26 AM

I have a 7 yr old 78# girl. I have had her in backless boosters without a second thought. I just had my second baby and learned lots.

ex: carseats expire? What, I don't remember that w/ my DD

So I started reading all my carseat manuals. Well she had already outgrown one belt positioning booster, the rest EXPIRED, how? I don't know I bought the seats when she fit in them not when she was an infant!

Anyhow after buying new boosters I realized the booster in my car (Mitsubishi Eclipse '05) won't work....Her head totally clears the back of the seat, she is 2 inches from the rear window. So I go and get a booster with a back thinking that will solve the problem. Nope the seatbelt doesn't seem to function right with the backed booster because it is feeding from the seat and therefore getting caught in the boosters seatbelt guide from having to travel up to the guide and back down to buckle. Plus the booster seats back is pressed onto the rear window.

Feeling defeated, I took her to the firehouse for a carseat check with my baby. Well, the fireman says no she doesn't need a seat in my car. How can that be, it's not legal in IL. Law says 8 yrs old or 80#. Plus it's not like she's super tall and skinny she's 51" 6" shy of the 4'9" guideline.

But even if I want her in one, I can't find one to work in my car. Now I'm wondering if the rear seatbelts are sized for smaller passengers because no full size adult would really fit in the back. I'm just worried I may not be getting the right advise, it just doesn't sound right with the laws contradicting that. I would really like to put this uneasiness behind me.

....And no a new car is not an option, shoot a new tire is hard to come by right now. That is after having to buy a Combi zues for my baby, because come to find out the hand me down graco infant seat was EXPIRED!

Sorry for the late night rambling.

Pixels

03-13-2009, 06:59 AM

Good job realizing that boosters expire (a lot of parents don't realize, or refuse to believe) and that your daughter needs one to comply with the law and that she needs head support! You have done a lot of things correctly already.

Yes, carseats expire. Over time, the plastic breaks down and becomes brittle. It will not have the strength to hold in a crash.

When you took her to the firehouse, are you sure that you were talking to an actual technician? A lot of times, a firefighter may not be a tech but just be trying to be helpful. In reality, he/she knows no more than you do, possibly less.

If the backseat was designed for children, there is a good chance that the seatbelt may fit her properly. If she is in nothing, how does the belt fit? The belt should be low on her hips (not her belly), shoulder belt crossing mid-shoulder (not on her neck, or falling off the side), with her hips all the way back, knees bent comfortably over the edge of the seat, and able to stay that way for the entire ride. Preferably with her feet flat on the floor as well, because otherwise children tend to slouch down to be more comfortable.

If the law says 8 or 80, then she does need to be in something to comply with the law.

I'm not telling you to break the law, but if the seatbelt fits her properly, she may be safer in just the belt, than in a booster that doesn't fit right or that prevents the seatbelt from working properly.

One option would be a vest. It would allow your daughter to sit lower in the seat, so the vehicle seat would provide head support. They are available from E-Z On.

Can you take back the boosters that you have bought, and the Zeus Turn? No need to keep boosters that don't work. The Zeus isn't highly recommended here because it is expensive for the amount of use you'll get out of it (relatively low height and weight limits). Unless you have a 2-door car, in which case it may be well worth it for the turning feature. How old is your baby, and how heavy?

Stretchy Glue

03-13-2009, 09:03 AM

My daughter is the same height as your's, and just slightly lighter. She still rides in a high back booster. In our state the law says 8 or 4'9". I'm sure we'll make it to 8, but not much longer.

This is where tough choices come in. Obviously, she's better off having whiplash protection than being in a booster for 2 lbs. At her age and size, I wouldn't advocate buying another booster seat for her.

Have you checked to make sure your headrests don't go up any more? What booster do you currently have her in. There are some that are low profile that might get you through too. I'd prefer to see kids staying in a booster until they reach 4'9", regardless of weight. Height is really more of an indicator of seatbelts fitting properly.

Maedze

03-13-2009, 09:47 AM

Welcome to C-S.org!

You're asking some great questions. Let's see if we can answer them :D

1. Yes, child restraints expire! For numerous reasons...mostly because parts degrade over time, and after a certain number of years, the seat can fail or even shatter in a low speed impact.

2. Booster Readiness:

These are the steps that your child needs to pass before she gets out of the booster.

A. The lap belt rests low across her hips and thighs, and does NOT lie across her tummy at all.

B. The shoulder belt crosses firmly at her shoulder, not touching her throat or sliding off her shoulder

C. Her tush sits right at the bight of the vehicle seat, not slouching forward

D. Her knees bend at the edge of the vehicle seat (not before) and her feet rest flat on the floor

E. She can remain in this position for the entirety of every trip, without slumping, reaching, falling out of the belt when she snoozes, etc.

As a general rule, children do not pass the five step test before 4 feet 9 inches. In some cars, they might pass earlier because of the seatbelt geometry.

Another thing to consider is that for a seven year old, her hips are still physically very immature. In an accident, the hips are what do the job of keeping the seatbelt down where it belongs. Immature hips can allow the seatbelt to slid up and cause serious internal organ damage.

If you feel comfortable, could you post a picture of your daughter sitting in the seat (you can blur out her face if you wish). We can get an idea of how the seatbelt is fitting her and maybe recommend some boosters that work with the seatbelt geometry in your car.

Also, I recommend returning the Combi Zeus. It's a huge waste of money. It only rearfaces to 22 pounds, which is beyond ridiculous for a convertible. Seats need to rearface to 30-35 pounds, because children need to rearface as long as possible. We don't recommend turning a child forward facing before a bare minimum of 2 years and 30 pounds, and longer is better.

LISmama810

03-13-2009, 10:57 AM

Also, I recommend returning the Combi Zeus. It's a huge waste of money. It only rearfaces to 22 pounds, which is beyond ridiculous for a convertible. Seats need to rearface to 30-35 pounds, because children need to rearface as long as possible. We don't recommend turning a child forward facing before a bare minimum of 2 years and 30 pounds, and longer is better.

You've gotten a lot of good information about the booster, but I especially want to second this part.

Besides having the lowest RFing weight limit on the market, the seat shell is very short. There's a possibility that your child will outgrow the seat by weight OR height before making it to a year old, meaning that you'll need to go buy another seat at that point anyway. And, like PP said, it would be better to keep the baby RF as long as possible.

Unregistered

03-13-2009, 12:25 PM

Thanks you guys.

I will try and get a photo of her uploaded here, I'm not very tech savy so we'll see.

Her fit with the seatbelt seems okay, not perfect though. She does sit all the way back and legs bent. She touches the floor. The shoulder part fits perfectly. My concern is the lap part, the car has bucket seats and I think that makes the lap belt ride a bit high on her.

I tried a variety of boosters after tossing the expired ones. I started w/ the clek olli because I liked the latch feature. But the latch made the seat sit too high in the bucket seat, not flush with the bottom. The shoulderbelt laid too low on her on this one. Next I got a cosco one (BoGo at Kmart!), this is when I realized she was too tall for the seat back. There are no headrests in the Eclipse. So I went straight out to get the Graco backed booster, but it didn't work!

Now about the Combi Zeus, I know it's not ideal but the only one that works out for us. It was the only convertible seat I could get into the TWO DOOR Eclipse because of the turn feature. My son is 4 mo. old and 16# so he has a little time to grow into it. When Amazon lowered the price to $216, I had to get it to get my son out of the expired infant seat. Other than the low RF weight and the "puzzle" buckle, I and he love it! We can all 4 fit in the car with this seat unlike with the infant carseat, which left the passenger seat unusable. I still haven't seen anything else that would work in the eclipse RF, any suggestions?

I am looking to get either the radian or recaro for my DH's neon if one of them fits. When I was prego we assumed we would just trade cars. Only I can't drive his car because it doesn't have Anti-lock brakes, at least not in rain or snow. ** Which is all Chicago has been getting! **

trixenama

03-13-2009, 01:07 PM

K. I just registered. My privious reply might come out of order but here are the pics. and I wanted to add that the fireman was the official checker. They are in a neighboring town and I had to call to make an appointment. He is one of 3 firefighters in that station that has taken the course, actually quite recently it sounded like. I had 2 fit my combi in the first time to find it had a large crack in it! Thankfully Amazon shipped me a new one next day!

Well okay never mind it's asking for a URL, can't I just upload a file for the pics??

Maedze

03-13-2009, 01:20 PM

You should be able to 'attach' pictures to your response. The option to attach is underneath the text box. Otherwise, you can upload to a photohosting site like photobucket and post the links here :)

Maedze

03-13-2009, 01:22 PM

Also, if you can get a Zeus in there, there's no reason you can't get any decent convertible in there. Seats like the Britax Marathon, for example, can be installed quite upright. Sure, it's a pain to put a rearfacing kid into a two door car, but since your child is going to outgrow the Combi long before he's safe forward facing, you might as well save the money you spent on the Zues and buy something that will last you until he can turn forward facing.

skylinphoto

03-13-2009, 01:34 PM

trixenama

03-13-2009, 02:32 PM

hmm. I only see "Post Icons" under the text box. Maybe they have not given me all privilages yet because I just registered. I'll try to see about photo bucket, I've never used it before.

Pixels

03-13-2009, 02:55 PM

hmm. I only see "Post Icons" under the text box. Maybe they have not given me all privilages yet because I just registered. I'll try to see about photo bucket, I've never used it before.

Below Post Icons, in the next section down, there is Miscellaneous Options and then Manage Attachments. You want Manage Attachments.

joolsplus3

03-13-2009, 03:22 PM

Would a scenera fit decently if it was installed more upright (well, as upright as you can get for a 4 mo old)?

Really, you're going to need a new seat when your baby hits 22 lbs..

BTW, my 3 yr old is still rearfacing in a Recaro Signo and I love love love it. Nicest seat I've ever seat. Very large seat. It fits okay in my small VW Passat though. :)

Her car is a two door sports car... http://images.google.com/images?rlz=1C1GGLS_enUS291US303&sourceid=chrome&q=mitsubishi+eclipse+2005&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=ubG6SbCtG4GCtwexi7XEDQ&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&resnum=1&ct=title

that's a few of them... I just can't fathom a Signo fitting RF in it...

Though I can easily imagine a 7 yo fitting boosterless in it, the back seat has got to be pretty child-sized...though the benefit of a booster would be that it helps keep the lapbelt low in a crash so it doesn't intrude into the abdomen, but if none will fit at all, there's not much that can be done...maybe the RideSafer Travel Vest would be a good option instead, I think someone mentioned that above.

papooses

03-13-2009, 04:31 PM

If this (http://www.familycar.com/RoadTests/MitsubishiEclipse/Images/RearSeat.jpg) is what the backseat looks like, I can say that the seatbelt didn't fit me correctly (lap portion of the belt rode up too high) @ 5'4" 100# :twocents: My 4'5" 50# 7 y.o. used the RSTV but I didn't have a chance to try out any boosters.... GOOD LUCK!

trixenama

03-13-2009, 04:48 PM

Sorry got pulled away for a bit. Yep, now the attach files shows. I was busy putting together a photo show here's the address for now. I'll try and upload in a sec.

http://photoshow.comcast.net/watch/rh3ht6iT

trixenama

03-13-2009, 04:56 PM

Lets see...

Well it's saying I can't load the others because I will be exceeding my quota, uh ok.

joolsplus3

03-13-2009, 04:59 PM

Oh yeah, she fits just like I do in my mom's old Volvo center seat (technically a great fit, but ooh lah lah, that lapbelt rides up way too high!)
I love seeing the pictures of the Zeus in a car, I've never seen it before :thumbsup:

Stretchy Glue

03-13-2009, 04:59 PM

I'd prefer the belt to be a bit farther down on the hips. Not terrible, but not the best fit.

Also, how old is your baby? I see that the convertible is ff. We recommend babies staying RF until they outgrow the rf limits, or until at least age 2. It also looked like there was something extra on the seat (an extra cover?:confused:) Most manufacturers don't allow after market products, and honestly, techs don't recommend them either. If I'm misunderstanding the picture, please forgive me.

trixenama

03-13-2009, 05:05 PM

No the Zeus turns. So it is FF right now because I took him out and when I put him in, I turn it RF. That is the only way I could get him in a convertible. The back seat is difficult for me to get into let alone carrying my son. The padding came with the seat, it's an infant insert and must remain untill he is 25 #. It puts infants at the proper angle.

Yes I put a lot of pics of the zeus and views in the photoshow. I have 3 more photos of my DD in the photoshow, they show the belt once more and then the head clearances.

Stretchy Glue

03-13-2009, 05:06 PM

TechnoGranola

03-13-2009, 05:07 PM

trixenama

03-13-2009, 05:34 PM

I'm going to check into the vest. I never knew there was such a thing.

Well I looked up the saferider vest and it is only for a child up to 80#.

Is a phonebook safe? LOL.

Maedze

03-13-2009, 06:46 PM

Yes, she clearly needs a booster. That lap belt fit is marginal at best. I don't think she even comes close to passing the five step test.

And RAWK ON WITH YOUR BAD SELF! on the car seat photo presentation. It had music, cool doodads and everything! I don't think I've ever seen anyone put such care into a photo upload before :p

What backless boosters have you tried? Some are shallower than others. A Clek Olli actually might be shallow enough that you won't have to worry about the ear clearance for a while at least.

Either way, this will come down to a parental decision. (Disregarding for the time being that the law requires you to have her in a booster seat).

As a parent, I would be MORE worried about the lap belt clearing her abdomen than having her ears over the back of the seat rest.

But firstly, as a parent I would try numerous different high back boosters to find one that would work with the seatbelt geometry. What one did you try that you didn't feel comfortable with?

trixenama

03-13-2009, 07:47 PM

Yes, she clearly needs a booster. That lap belt fit is marginal at best. I don't think she even comes close to passing the five step test.

--I am concerned with the fit on the lap.

And RAWK ON WITH YOUR BAD SELF! on the car seat photo presentation. It had music, cool doodads and everything! I don't think I've ever seen anyone put such care into a photo upload before :p

--LOL it is part of the comcast (cable modem) programs they added to my computer. When I insert the sd card it auto loads into it and the slide show is done automatically. I just rotate the pics and added text.

What backless boosters have you tried? Some are shallower than others. A Clek Olli actually might be shallow enough that you won't have to worry about the ear clearance for a while at least.

--That is one of the first I bought. I will take a pic after dinner. But the olli made the shoulder belt lay across her arm instead of her collar bone.

Either way, this will come down to a parental decision. (Disregarding for the time being that the law requires you to have her in a booster seat).

As a parent, I would be MORE worried about the lap belt clearing her abdomen than having her ears over the back of the seat rest.

--You know I'm not sure which would be worst. Because her head is so close to the rear window when she is in a booster. And with the potholes here, she'll probably end up bumping her head on that. Plus I'm not saying her ears are just over the seat it is her entire head with a booster.

But firstly, as a parent I would try numerous different high back boosters to find one that would work with the seatbelt geometry. What one did you try that you didn't feel comfortable with?

--I tried the Olli, the Cosco Highrise backless booster, and the Graco Turbo Booster with the back. The problem with the backed boosters is they end up too tall for the back seat when adjusted to fit her (hatchback won't close). Plus the seat belt will not work because it has to route upwards toward the seatguide on the booster and then routes down to buckle and it just doesn't work, it tangles and gets stuck. And I don't think the little red plastic guide will hold up to that kind of force if it was in an accident. I've already returned this one but I will post of her in 2 other boosters and if my DH returns today with the cosco.

trixenama

03-16-2009, 03:33 PM

Okay, I think I figured out how to make the files smaller (at least the pic)

1st pic: She's in the graco (backless) turbo booster

--you can see her shoulders are just above the seat back, she is about 1-2 in. from the rear glass

2nd pic: She's in the Clek olli (backless) booster

--She is clearly much higher in this one and she is about 1/2 cm. from the rear glass

3rd pic: Clek Olli in bucket seats

--It has about 3" between it and the bottom of the bucket seat. And DD falls behind the booster w/o latching.

chickabiddy

03-16-2009, 03:42 PM

I'm sorry, but neither of those boosters is even a remotely acceptable fit. The shoulder belt is nowhere near her shoulder. If she has to be in a backless booster, you need to use one that has a clip to position the shoulder belt (the Turbo should have one).

TechnoGranola

03-16-2009, 03:45 PM

Are the backless boosters really making the shoulder belt sit that low on her? If so, that is totally unacceptable as the belt guide on a backless isn't going to solve that, is it? My experience with the belt guides on no backs, is that they work to hold the belt down, but they won't bring it up. The belt guide on my turbo booster would definitely not bring the belt up to the proper position when my DD sat in one (and thus she had to move to the seat belt). Plus, your DD is sitting up so high that she has zero head support. :(

It seems to me you need a low profile high back booster. Hopefully someone knows if something like this exists!

A tech can address your worry of belt guides on a high back not holding up, but I believe they aren't designed to withold the forces of an accident but rather a pre-crash positioner to ensure the belt is in the correct position at the time of the accident.

chickabiddy

03-16-2009, 03:47 PM

I am not usually a huge fan of vests/harnesses, but I think that's exactly what's needed here.

trixenama

03-16-2009, 03:49 PM

The harness has an 80# max.

I was just hoping someone knew what fit an older child in a small rear seat.

The big problem is I don't think they make a booster that will form into the bucket seat so it fits in the seat with the hatch closed. Therefore allowing my daughters shoulders to stay well below the seat back so the shoulder belt fits.

I don't know which is the better of the two ills.

With booster: No head support (totally against the manual's instructions) and terrible shoulder belt fit

Or Without booster: Having head support and good shoulder fit with a higher than wanted lap belt....ugh. I swear I'm getting the phone book!

Pixels

03-16-2009, 03:54 PM

I don't think any backless booster will work there. The shoulder belt is too far off the side of her shoulder.

EZ On (http://www.ezonpro.com) makes vests for heavier children and adults, up to 168 pounds.

chickabiddy

03-16-2009, 03:55 PM

The harness has an 80# max.

An Ez-ON harness has a max of 168 pounds.

trixenama

03-16-2009, 03:58 PM

I tried looking that up a couple days ago and it didn't come up on the search engine. Anyone have a link to their website? I'll try again, it might have been the spelling given.

chickabiddy

03-16-2009, 03:59 PM

http://www.ezonpro.com/products/familyVehicle/86yHarness.shtml

trixenama

03-16-2009, 04:07 PM

That one it is also a 80# limit for my car because there is no location to install the tether kit (needed for 80-168#) that location only has rear glass. Or am I not understanding the tether kit part?

I'm not familiar with harnesses, why would you not normally recommend? What's the scoop on the harness?

chickabiddy

03-16-2009, 04:15 PM

A 2005 Mitsubishi Eclipse Coupe has tether anchors already installed (check your vehicle manual): you need to install the heavy-duty kit.

My main objection to harnesses is that they can be inconvenient. However, they do fill a need, and this is exactly that need.

Stretchy Glue

03-16-2009, 04:51 PM

I think this is one of those situations where we as techs say "There is no safe way to do this with the current seats." It's not easy to say, but in this situation, the vehicle is nearly incompatible with the boosters you have, and your daughter's head stick out way over the top of the vehicle seats. When she sits without the booster, the belt rides on her abdomen, not her lap. As it stands right now, there is no safe way to do this.

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet or not, but what about the front seat? Not my first choice, but I'd rather her be safely traveling in a booster in the front than any of the current options in the back. When she is without a booster, does she have adequate whiplash protection in the back seat?

As a tech, I would have a hard time with this situation if you came into a check up. I think I'd send you out with her in the front seat, pushed all the way back, in a booster, if she fit better there.:twocents:

Maedze

03-16-2009, 09:31 PM

I agree with Joni. Outside of an EZ on Vest, there is no safe way for her to ride in the back seat. I can see now what you mean about the belt and how it would be incompatible with a high back booster.

If you were a mom at my check station, I would explain the situation as above, and I would let you choose....the back seat with an unacceptable seatbelt fit, or the front seat in a good booster.

As a PARENT, I would place my child in the front seat.

trixenama

03-16-2009, 11:53 PM

Question, would the front seat be okay with a booster for her w/o having the front seat all the way back? The car manual says to move the seat as far away from the airbag as possible for kids. With the RF convertible behind it isn't all the way back.

I know my daughter would love to sit in front (me not so much it'll be a battle to get her in back in the other car).

I feel like a loner here in our area. Almost every child at my DD's school is not in a childseat. And I have seen many of the Kindergardeners buckled in the front seat of minivans, suv's and regular sedans. Let alone driving down the road seeing toddlers and small children floating around their cars unbuckled (especially irritating when the driver is buckled)! I hate seeing it, I wish the childseat laws were much more advertised and enforced. Most parents are not even aware of the 8 or 80# law in IL (I had to look it up online, when no one could tell me). This makes it so much more difficult to keep an older child in their boosters. They see their friends don't use one and then they don't want to use one.

**Don't get me wrong, I win all safety battles!

I myself am 30 and I used a booster until I didn't fit in it anymore! I loved it I could see everything, and I felt lucky and special because no one else had one. I still remember that cracked "leather" brown vinyl.:love:

I'm wondering how unsafe a folded towel, placed inside the bucket area of the seat would be? That is what I have done the last two trips. It places the lap belt better w/o raising her too high.

Note: I will be getting a family sedan next time! I knew I would have to in a few years because DD would not be comfy in a tiny rearseat at 11. Let's hope for a good year!

Pixels

03-17-2009, 12:06 AM

Any chance of moving the convertible to a different seating position?

MustangMama

03-17-2009, 12:57 AM

I vote for the front seat :)

Those booster pictures don't look like a good fit at all :o

Stretchy Glue

03-17-2009, 09:00 AM

I would not use the towels, I would put her in the front seat, and if possible move the RF seat to the driver's side in the back, if you need the seat back farther, I would put the pasenger seat back as far as you can, and use a backless booster in the front if it's at all possible. She's still within the law, and I personally think she should be in a booster for a while longer. It's more her height than her weight that are a real indicator of being ready to use the seatbelt alone.:twocents:

chickabiddy

03-17-2009, 09:06 AM

I agree -- no towels. If a harness is not an option and front seat use is legal, I'd do that, as long as the seat can be all the way back. If you can't use a harness and you can't put the seat all the way back, I will reluctantly say that you cannot safely transport your daughter.

Splash

03-17-2009, 10:54 AM

I don't have any better suggestions than what has been brought up, except maybe a Radian in the front seat.

But!

I just wanted to stand up and clap because you are so amazingly amazing in the car seat world- determined to get the right fit and stick with it, learn more, accept hard choices, spend money, post pictures, make slideshows (which I haven't seen), seek out help online and continue searching for answers, going to a real life car seat check... I am just amazed! YOU are the parent we all dream of encountering!

:sarcasitc-bow::cool!::2thumbsup:

Maedze

03-17-2009, 11:00 AM

I totally agree, Splash. It's rare and really nice to see a parent so totally aware and trying her best in the CPS department. Have a cookie :p

Mommyloves2stroll

03-17-2009, 02:06 PM

I don't have any advice for you - but I feel your pain! We went through something similar with my oldest 8 years ago in the back of my husbands Saturn SC2. We went through countless boosters before we found one that fit back there. :eek: A month later DH went out and bought a bigger car. :dizzy:

Good luck!

trixenama

03-17-2009, 03:05 PM

Thank you all. My daughter is going to be so excited to sit in the front (w/ her backless booster of course).

I am going to have my husband look up and see if there is some way to disable the passenger front/side airbags.

Pixels

03-17-2009, 03:57 PM

The most important thing is that she is in proper position at all times. It'll be easier to keep an eye on her with her up front, so if you catch her leaning on the door, or leaning forward, tell her to sit back properly.

Maedze

03-17-2009, 04:06 PM

The airbags cannot be disabled without an exemption from NHTSA, (and this won't qualify). Simply make sure she is seated properly at all times, all the way back.

Stretchy Glue

03-17-2009, 04:16 PM

She is old enough to understand the importance. I might consider a bribe for a while if she doesn't do it automatically. If her belt locks, you might consider doing that also.

Splash

03-17-2009, 06:12 PM

Watched the video... interesting that the ZT still tethers "FF" when in use RF. Too bad they couldn't get it to certify to a higher weight, I'd have one!

The fit isn't great, but I think it's better without the booster.

While not generally recommended, and not crash tested in any way, I would probably go with a driving wedge... a wedge shaped pillow generally used for drivers just to relieve back pain and give them a small boost. My grandmother used one all her driving years. It would fill the gap in the seat, and raise her just enough that the lap belt fits well.

If that, or a vest, is not an option... I'd say skip the booster entirely. She's 78#, the weight is a matter of logistics, not safety. Laws of physics v laws of man differ, but I'm gonna have to... geez...

yeah, I don't think it can be done perfectly in this vehicle. As a parent, I would choose to use a driving wedge.