Help! Lap/Shoulder belt problem!!

[Mama Jo]

I drive a 2004 Chevy Classic. (For those who aren't aware, it's essentially the same vehicle as the 2003 and earlier Chevy Malibu - in 04, the body style changed, but they still manufactured the old body style and re-named it the "Classic" while the new body style was the "Malibu")

Anyway....

I received my Frontier the other day and was working to install it this evening. I read the carseat manual and also read through my vehicle owner's manual, and came across a few things that concerned me...

According to my vehicle owner's manual, my front passenger and 2 outboard rear shoulder belts are supposed to lock upon pulling them out all the way and then feeding them back into the retractor. The only one that actually does this is the front passenger. I never realized this before!!

I previously thought my LATCH limit was 48 lbs., but upon reading my manual, I noticed it doesn't specify a limit, which would default to 40 lbs. for a Britax seat, right?? I had been using LATCH up till now with another seat, and also had been using the lap/shoulder belt with a HBB, depending on what seat I was using.

Now I'm worried! I'm afraid I can't use LATCH because my DD is 42-43 lbs, lightly dressed without shoes. And I'm afraid I can't use the seatbelt because the locking mechanism appears to be broken in both of the back seat locations. If it doesn't lock upon feeding it back in after pulling it all the way out, would it not lock upon impact if it were used with a HBB?? Could I use a locking clip on the seatbelt to "fix" this issue in order to install the Frontier with a seatbelt, or could there be something wrong with the entire seatbelt mechanism that I shouldn't use it at all?? I don't know what to do!!

[An Aurora]

You might have locking latchplates, and your LATCH limit is 48 pounds in Chevy vehicles. The owner's manual doesn't say so but they normally don't :)

[Mama Jo]

Would this be a locking latchplate?? The manual says the shoulder belts are supposed to lock upon feeding them back into the retractor... the front seat does this, but the back ones don't. This is the latchplate from the backseat seatbelt...

I'm going to have to re-weigh her fully dressed with shoes, but she's only within a few lbs of the LATCH limit anyway I think, so I'd rather install with the seatbelt so I don't have to re-do it when she hits the limit...


http://i607.photobucket.com/albums/tt155/josiesmith624/latchplate1.jpg

http://i607.photobucket.com/albums/tt155/josiesmith624/latchplate2.jpg

[Gypsy]

Yes, those are light weight locking latch plates.

When you install the seat, flip the male part of the buckle 1/2 turn and then buckle it - that will force it to lock - they usually slip if you don't turn them and will loosen over time - if you turn it 1/2 turn, that won't happen.

[Maedze]

That is a locking latchplate :)

Also, the Frontier has a LATCH limit of 40 pounds, so regardless of your vehicle, you MUST use the seatbelt installation at 40 pounds.

[joolsplus3]

That is a locking latchplate :)

Also, the Frontier has a LATCH limit of 40 pounds, so regardless of your vehicle, you MUST use the seatbelt installation at 40 pounds.
Nope, not true. They just say 40 to bow down to the lowest common denominator of vehicles that say 40. If you KNOW your vehicle goes to a higher limit, then it's ok to use it to that higher limit. The LATCH hardware is fully designed to hold the full harnessed weight, so there's no reason to stop using it at 40 unless your vehicle manufacturer has that as their maximum weight.

:)

[BookMama]

Nope, not true. They just say 40 to bow down to the lowest common denominator of vehicles that say 40. If you KNOW your vehicle goes to a higher limit, then it's ok to use it to that higher limit. The LATCH hardware is fully designed to hold the full harnessed weight, so there's no reason to stop using it at 40 unless your vehicle manufacturer has that as their maximum weight.:)

This is correct, per Sarah Tilton of Britax.

http://www.car-seat.org/showpost.php?p=736048&postcount=27

[Maedze]

Awesome! Is the manual going to be rewritten to reflect that change, or is this one of those things that everyone knows and never actually gets written down?

[BookMama]

Awesome! Is the manual going to be rewritten to reflect that change, or is this one of those things that everyone knows and never actually gets written down?

:confused:

P. 13 of the Frontier manual (http://www.britaxusa.com/uploads/products/user-guides/9.pdf) has this wording:

"... Unless specified otherwise by the vehicle manufacturer, assume a 40 pound (18.1 kg) child is the vehicle LATCH anchor limit ... "

[Pixels]

The manual already says that. At least the online one does.

[Maedze]

Good grief, just ignore me this morning. I seem to have caught a case of the stupid. I'm finding it's happening more frequently these days :rolleyes:

[Mama Jo]

Awesome! Thanks :) My vehicle manual is seriously lacking! And I personally feel more comfortable at her weight using the seatbelt rather than LATCH... Especially considering the weight of the seat. I know the LATCH weight limit is just for the weight of the kid, but in my mind it just would make more sense to do re-calculate the LATCH limits and do an overall child plus restraint weight limit on LATCH, because it's holding in the entire weight load of the kid and the carseat, not just the weight of the kid - when they test the anchors in the vehicles do they really allow for a 20+ lbs restraint?? Or do they give it 10-15 lbs?? Or something else?? (More or less rhetorical questions... unless someone actually knows an answer...) Anyway, if DD wasn't so close to the limit, I wouldn't be concerned. But as close as she is, I just feel better using the seatbelt since it's supposed to be able to hold 200+ lbs.

So... I have the Frontier installed outboard with the SBP and it only took one try!! (Ok, so it took 2 tries, but the first was a LBP attempt, which I knew wouldn't work but still had to try...) It was way easier than everyone keeps saying and it's in there very solid. But I could see that if I really tried, I could get the belt to wiggle loose, and with DD jumping in and out of it every day, it might not take long for that to happen. So I'll re-install it this evening and flip around the male end... but I have a feeling that's going to make it tricky to tighten once it's buckled because of where the buckle sits and how the shoulder strap portion will be behind the lapbelt portion... So I may very well join the long list of complainers tomorrow... Wish me luck...

[CaseyRN]

So just to clarify something....it is OK to twist the buckle so that essentially you are putting it in backwards and adding a twist into the belt......that's not a problem? My mom's car has locking latchplates and I'm thinking next time she's here I should maybe flip the buckle where DD's scenera is installed.

[Mama Jo]

So just to clarify something....it is OK to twist the buckle so that essentially you are putting it in backwards and adding a twist into the belt......that's not a problem? My mom's car has locking latchplates and I'm thinking next time she's here I should maybe flip the buckle where DD's scenera is installed.

Do they look like mine or are they the "regular" kind of locking latchplate? (I don't know the technical names for them lol)

[Maedze]

Mama Jo, you do not need to worry about the crs weight plus the child weight :) The anchors have been rated up to a 48 pound child weight. They aren't going to give it that rating if it's going to fail with a heavier CRS, if that makes sense. If you prefer a seatbelt install, that's just fine, but if it's easier to do LATCH, don't worry!

CaseyRN, yes, it's acceptable to give the belt a half twist of the locking latchplate is being ornery :)

[CaseyRN]

They look a lot like yours.....I know they are locking latchplates (from the seat check back when we had her RFing)

[CaseyRN]

Thanks 3B (ooops I mean maedze)

[Mama Jo]

The anchors have been rated up to a 48 pound child weight. They aren't going to give it that rating if it's going to fail with a heavier CRS, if that makes sense.

Oh, I totally realize the I can use LATCH and that it's approved for my kid's weight and all that... I just wonder... if someone came out with a 50 lb child restraint next week, could you still put a 48 lb kid in it and install it with LATCH?? (Hypothetically speaking of course, because a 50 lb restraint would be insane... but just saying... for argument's sake...)

Or, on the other hand, say you have a 10 lb restraint compared to a 20 lb restraint... with the same kid. You still have to stop using the LATCH when the kid reaches 48 lbs even though there's only 58 lbs of weight on the LATCH anchors with the smaller seat as compared to 68 lbs of weight with the heavier seat. Granted, it's distributed differently in each scenerio because of where the weight is, but would it make alot of difference in a head-on collision when the entire weight of the kid + restraint is thrown forward?? My point being...well, I guess my point is, I don't like the LATCH rules. They would make more sense my way. Give it an entire overall weight limit and be done. So I'm boycotting LATCH.

[Pixels]

With a hypothetical 50 pound restraint, technically, yes, unless the manual of the restraint specified otherwise (and I hope they would, since it would be SO much heavier than anything else on the market). It all comes down to the fudge factor, AKA the margin of error. Plus, physics being what it is and all, the weight on the anchors (child weight plus restraint weight) is not the only factor in the load that they take. Crash speeds (specifically, the change in velocity over the change in time) also factor in. So with a heavier CRS, you have a smaller fudge factor. The anchors will fail at a slightly lower speed than with a lighter CRS (but that could mean they fail at 200 mph instead of 220 mph - either way, it doesn't matter).

My personal rule with LATCH is use it RFing, but you're going to have to go to seatbelt install anyway eventually, so why not as soon as kiddo is FFing? There are a few exceptions to that rule, but anyway, in general, that's my rule.

[Jeanum]

If lower LATCH anchor installations were failing to any degree, our realm of child passenger safety would likely have heard about it, and we truly haven't. :) Follow the lower LATCH anchor installation weight limits specified, and use whichever allowable method allows you to achieve a proper installation for the seating position in your car. :thumbsup:

[Mama Jo]

If lower LATCH anchor installations were failing to any degree, our realm of child passenger safety would likely have heard about it, and we truly haven't. :) Follow the lower LATCH anchor installation weight limits specified, and use whichever allowable method allows you to achieve a proper installation for the seating position in your car. :thumbsup:

I realized after you posted this that my little rant could potentially be scaring people out there lurking or doing research from using LATCH. Totally not my intention, so thanks for posting that :thumbsup:

I'm more or less arguing for the sake of arguing because I get frustrated when the information is not provided in the manuals like I think it should be... for example, The Frontier's LATCH limit is whatever is stated in the vehicle manual, or 40 lbs if nothing is stated. My manual doesn't state a limit, so you would think it would be 40 lbs. But apparently its 48 lbs. And just logically thinking, the weight of the seat should be taken into consideration when placing the limits on the LATCH - not by us the users, but by the manufacturers and the "testers" - which, if it was done this way, I'm thinking it could potentially raise the LATCH limits for alot of restraints that might weigh less than whatever they are currently allowing for in restraint weight. Obviously we have no idea what that is or what it could be because it's not tested like that, so you have to follow whatever is specified in your owner's manual, or ask a tech because apparently they know more about the vehicles than the vehicle manufacturer's themselves...

Ok, I'm finished... I've managed to get this thread way off track from it's original intent, which was to try and figure out what kind of seatbelt I had and if it was working properly!

[Jeanum]

I hear you on the complexity of LATCH, a system that was ironically intended to simplify or standardize installation of carseats, but in reality added more layers of complexity. :o We have a huge ratio of lurkers to actual posters here, and we try very hard to inform as much as possible without unduly panicking the masses, that's all. :)

[joolsplus3]

This chat we had with one of the main authors of the LATCH manual may clarify some questions http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=11221

:)