What convertibles can be braced against front seat in RF installs?

[menfusse]

Title says it all. :thumbsup: Providing the vehicle allows it :D.

[Maedze]

I do not believe any convertibles forbid 'touching' the seat in front. However, some vehicles, particularly those with newer-model side impact airbags, forbid it, so always read the vehicle manual.

[Pixels]

The Radian doesn't specifically allow it, but doesn't disallow it either. It only says to check with the vehicle's manual.

[menfusse]

I do not believe any convertibles forbid 'touching' the seat in front. However, some vehicles, particularly those with newer-model side impact airbags, forbid it, so always read the vehicle manual. I have an 08 Jeep Commander, with side curtain airbags. I've read the entire airbag section of the manual, as well as the car seat section. It doesn't mention anything about car seats or anything for that matter touching the front seats. So, I'm fairly certain it's ok in my car, just was curious if there were specific seats that were ok for bracing. I mean by bracing, being rather snugly butted up against the front seat, provided the seat has been installed securely prior and doing so doesn't effect the install. Or is it a touch only kind of thing?

[G8r4evr]

Great question! :shrug-shoulders: I will wait for the expert to arrive :love:

[Defrost]

Check the section where it talks about the airbag sensors for the passenger seat. It should say something about "cargo" or "luggage" pushing against the back of the seat, even if it doesn't specifically mention carseats. Heck, I think my Mazda 5 manual specifically states not to let rear passengers (children) push their feet against the back of the seat, because it interferes with the airbag sensors. Or maybe that was my sister's Honda... I forget where I read it, but I remember thinking it was funny. "No kicking the seat!" has been a long-stated parental command, but now it really means something! :D

If it really doesn't say anything, then your vehicle may not have those kinds of airbag sensors, but I do know it's kind of buried in the mass of information in the manuals I've read - very easy to overlook.

[skaterbabscpst]

There are no convertibles that forbid touching; the only seats that do are Evenflo infant carriers. You'll need to thoroughly read your vehicle owner's manual to verify wither or not it's okay. Also, any vehicle that doesn't allow bracing probably does not allow RF tethering either.

[flutie128]

I know the true fit without the headrest is not allow to touch but with the headrest is allowed to touch.

[LISmama810]

Also, any vehicle that doesn't allow bracing probably does not allow RF tethering either.

Really? How would we know this? RF tethering is hardly ever (I'd say "never," but there's always an exception) addressed in vehicle manuals. I understand not bracing/touching because of airbag sensors in the seat, but how does the seat leg (where a tether would likely be) play into it?

[menfusse]

I read the whole section and it didn't mention cargo or luggage touching. I wonder if it's a Chrysler/Jeep thing. We had a Chrysler T&C that we traded in on the Jeep. I do know it had the seat sensors for the airbags, because if I put say my day loaded diaper bag on the seat, it would trip the sensor and turn the airbag off. Even in that manual, it didn't mention in the airbag section anything about things touching the seat, whether cargo or carseats. As for the Jeep, it doesn't have the sensor that turns the airbag off if there is lightweight stuff on the front seat, but according to the manual the force with which the airbag is deployed is dependent on passenger size among other things. Still it only warns against leaning on the windows or sitting too close to the front dash and off course not putting car seats in the front seat. It doesn't mention anything regarding stuff touching the front seats and interference with sensors.

So, if I install a taller RF seat, such as the EFTA...and I get a solid install, then push the driver's seat back all the way against it...am I good? We did this with the Decathlon before it met it's demise, because I remember reading Britax specifically allowed bracing and our van made no mention that it wasn't ok. I currently have the Scenera pretty upright, and it is touching the front seat, but I can easily slide my hadn in between-the cushioning compresses to allow me to do that. But, I'm afraid with the EFTA, it will be bigger, and it will need to be more snugly against the front seat. So...you know, I wanted to be sure it was ok before I got it.

[Pixels]

Really? How would we know this? RF tethering is hardly ever (I'd say "never," but there's always an exception) addressed in vehicle manuals. I understand not bracing/touching because of airbag sensors in the seat, but how does the seat leg (where a tether would likely be) play into it?
The sensors are often actually in the seat legs (or under them). They use the whole seat as a big scale to weigh the front passenger.

I read the whole section and it didn't mention cargo or luggage touching. I wonder if it's a Chrysler/Jeep thing. We had a Chrysler T&C that we traded in on the Jeep. I do know it had the seat sensors for the airbags, because if I put say my day loaded diaper bag on the seat, it would trip the sensor and turn the airbag off. Even in that manual, it didn't mention in the airbag section anything about things touching the seat, whether cargo or carseats. As for the Jeep, it doesn't have the sensor that turns the airbag off if there is lightweight stuff on the front seat, but according to the manual the force with which the airbag is deployed is dependent on passenger size among other things. Still it only warns against leaning on the windows or sitting too close to the front dash and off course not putting car seats in the front seat. It doesn't mention anything regarding stuff touching the front seats and interference with sensors.

So, if I install a taller RF seat, such as the EFTA...and I get a solid install, then push the driver's seat back all the way against it...am I good? We did this with the Decathlon before it met it's demise, because I remember reading Britax specifically allowed bracing and our van made no mention that it wasn't ok. I currently have the Scenera pretty upright, and it is touching the front seat, but I can easily slide my hadn in between-the cushioning compresses to allow me to do that. But, I'm afraid with the EFTA, it will be bigger, and it will need to be more snugly against the front seat. So...you know, I wanted to be sure it was ok before I got it.
If the seat has the sensors (which yours does, you've seen evidence of it, even if it's not in the manual), you should treat it as such, and not allow stuff to touch it. That includes having a RFing seat touching the back of the seat. Even if you can get the cushions to compress enough to get your hand in between, the seat is exerting some force on the seat, which will give wrong information to the sensors.

That said, I regularly install DD's seat behind the passenger's seat of my brother's Honda Fit, then move the seat back (touching/bracing) and sit in it. It's a personal decision that I'm comfortable with. I'm WELL over the weight limit to turn the airbag off for little passengers. I've accepted the risk that the airbags may deploy more forcefully than necessary (another job of the sensors, combined with how hard the impact is). In this case, it isn't even a parental decision, because either way my DD is safe. It's a personal decision because I'm the one in that passenger's seat. It's also a temporary install, so there is literally zero chance that the baby seat would still be installed with a young/light passenger riding in the front seat.

[menfusse]

The sensors are often actually in the seat legs (or under them). They use the whole seat as a big scale to weigh the front passenger.


If the seat has the sensors (which yours does, you've seen evidence of it, even if it's not in the manual), you should treat it as such, and not allow stuff to touch it. That includes having a RFing seat touching the back of the seat. Even if you can get the cushions to compress enough to get your hand in between, the seat is exerting some force on the seat, which will give wrong information to the sensors.

That said, I regularly install DD's seat behind the passenger's seat of my brother's Honda Fit, then move the seat back (touching/bracing) and sit in it. It's a personal decision that I'm comfortable with. I'm WELL over the weight limit to turn the airbag off for little passengers. I've accepted the risk that the airbags may deploy more forcefully than necessary (another job of the sensors, combined with how hard the impact is). In this case, it isn't even a parental decision, because either way my DD is safe. It's a personal decision because I'm the one in that passenger's seat. It's also a temporary install, so there is literally zero chance that the baby seat would still be installed with a young/light passenger riding in the front seat.

I'm tending to agree with this for a few reasons. First let me say, I haven't seen evidence of the sensors in my Jeep, I'm only reading what the manual says regarding what decides the force of the airbag deployment. It actually never addresses a sensor for occupant size in the seats or seat legs at all. It only mentions briefly on two occasions that the severity and location of the crash and possibly occupant size will determine the force of the deployment, but I will just run under the assumption as such. The airbag does not turn off with lighter weights I do know that, only our T&C did that...the Jeep doesn't.

All that being said, I am quite fluffy myself (size 22, and 5'6")and my dh (who does the majority of the driving) is 6'3" and about 215lbs. Nobody else ever drives the car or would be up front as a passenger, so my concern is more with the performance of the car seat and my dd's safety than with the force of the airbag deployment. We're big people, you know? So, it's ok for the seat, as long as this doesn't effect installation or the installation is dependent upon that bracing. At least that's the conclusion I am coming to.

[Defrost]

You could always install the carseat and then drive around with no one in the passenger seat and keep an eye on the sensor light. I've seen mine go off & on when I had something shoved behind the seat, with the seat itself empty, so I know that's what was doing it.

However, I don't think it's obvious if there's a person riding in the seat. We had the entire back of my car CRAMMED with kids and their assorted luggage a few months ago (long story, but there was NO other option) and I know for a fact that the suitcase behind my friend was jammed up against the seat, and the sensor light never came on. I'm sure if her seat had been empty it would have blinking on and off every time I turned a corner or slowed down.

[Pixels]

The light going off and on is a sign that the vehicle thinks it has an occupant in the seat that is borderline for airbag deployment. The problem with having something affecting the sensors (such as a carseat, luggage, or RFing tether) with a heavier adult (definitely not borderline) is that it could affect how strongly the airbags deployed in a crash. Basically the computer would have mis-information about the weight of the front occupant. The computer uses that information, along with information from the airbag deployment sensors (the ones in the bumper area) about the severity of the impact, and makes a decision about how forcefully to deploy the airbags.

If there computer is tricked into thinking the occupant is heavier than s/he is (such as a RFing seat pressing down on the vehicle seat), the airbags may deploy more forcefully than they otherwise would have, (or deploy, when they otherwise wouldn't) IF the crash was borderline anyway. If the computer is tricked into thinking the occupant is lighter than s/he is (such as RFing tether pulling up on the seat, or luggage underneath that prevents the seat from pressing down so hard on the "scale"), the airbags may deploy less forcefully, or not at all, IF the crash was borderline anyway.

It's kind of like looking at sizing on pantyhose. You know how there's the graph, and you look up your height, and your weight, and find which letter you're supposed to fit? That's sort of what the computer does, but instead of height, it has information about crash severity, and it only has 3 "sizes" - no deployment, lower speed deployment, or maximum deployment. So if the computer thinks that you're 20 pounds heavier than you are, but it doesn't change which "size" it would fall into, it doesn't matter. But if it does change which "size," then it does matter. Clear as mud?

But the shorter answer to your question is no, as long as the restraint doesn't forbid it, it shouldn't affect the safety of the child. In fact, it might improve it for a couple of reasons. One, one of the big tests that they do on RFing seats is a check for downward rotation. In a crash, the head area of the restraint rotates down and forward. There are limits on how far it is allowed to rotate. But by having the front seatback there, it prevents/reduces that rotation. Second, if the restraint is going to strike the vehicle seatback during the downward rotation, it is better to have it touching before the crash. This lets the restraint rode down the crash with the vehicle. If it is not touching before the crash, then the restraint strikes the vehicle seat, that is another impact that your child is experiencing.

[menfusse]

The light going off and on is a sign that the vehicle thinks it has an occupant in the seat that is borderline for airbag deployment. The problem with having something affecting the sensors (such as a carseat, luggage, or RFing tether) with a heavier adult (definitely not borderline) is that it could affect how strongly the airbags deployed in a crash. Basically the computer would have mis-information about the weight of the front occupant. The computer uses that information, along with information from the airbag deployment sensors (the ones in the bumper area) about the severity of the impact, and makes a decision about how forcefully to deploy the airbags.

If there computer is tricked into thinking the occupant is heavier than s/he is (such as a RFing seat pressing down on the vehicle seat), the airbags may deploy more forcefully than they otherwise would have, (or deploy, when they otherwise wouldn't) IF the crash was borderline anyway. If the computer is tricked into thinking the occupant is lighter than s/he is (such as RFing tether pulling up on the seat, or luggage underneath that prevents the seat from pressing down so hard on the "scale"), the airbags may deploy less forcefully, or not at all, IF the crash was borderline anyway.

It's kind of like looking at sizing on pantyhose. You know how there's the graph, and you look up your height, and your weight, and find which letter you're supposed to fit? That's sort of what the computer does, but instead of height, it has information about crash severity, and it only has 3 "sizes" - no deployment, lower speed deployment, or maximum deployment. So if the computer thinks that you're 20 pounds heavier than you are, but it doesn't change which "size" it would fall into, it doesn't matter. But if it does change which "size," then it does matter. Clear as mud?

But the shorter answer to your question is no, as long as the restraint doesn't forbid it, it shouldn't affect the safety of the child. In fact, it might improve it for a couple of reasons. One, one of the big tests that they do on RFing seats is a check for downward rotation. In a crash, the head area of the restraint rotates down and forward. There are limits on how far it is allowed to rotate. But by having the front seatback there, it prevents/reduces that rotation. Second, if the restraint is going to strike the vehicle seatback during the downward rotation, it is better to have it touching before the crash. This lets the restraint rode down the crash with the vehicle. If it is not touching before the crash, then the restraint strikes the vehicle seat, that is another impact that your child is experiencing.

Yea, I totally understand all that. I did prior, lol...but thank you for taking the time to explain it. I've decided in our situation, it's fine to have the seat against the front seat, regardless of how the airbag is effected. We are both big people, so the possible difference in that force, if any, is worth it for the safety of keeping her RF.

If anybody has any specifics, just out of curiosity, about the 08 Jeep Commanders and seat sensors, I'd love to know the definitive answer though. From what I read and what I see on the dash, there is no light sensor that is related to the weight of occupant/stuff on that front seat like there was in my van. Come to think of it, when my DD was in the Decathlon, behind the passenger seat, even though it was braced pretty forcefully against the back, that light never came on unless I placed something ON the seat that was heavy-say an over night bag or something to that effect. As for the Jeep, I've not had the seat in there, only the Scenera and it's really only touching the seat. I have, however, had heavier things on that front seat...certainly heavy enough to cause any sort of sensor light to light up on the dash, such as was in the van, and nada. So, if anyone has specs of the way they work in the Jeeps, I'm merely curious now. I've already made my mind up that bracing is best for us.