Help Me Drive A Stick

[Defrost]

So... I'm terribly embarrassed to admit this, but I'm having trouble driving my car. It's a stick. I learned how to drive on a stick, and both my first vehicles (trucks) were sticks, and I prefer to drive a stick.

However, I've never in my life driven a "new" stick. When I got the car and the clutch felt "tight," I figured I'd just get used to it.

Well, I haven't. I can't seem to figure the stupid thing out. And I drive a LOT (40K miles in 20 months :whistle: ), so it must be something I've just never considered - clearly, I'm missing something.

Here's the problem - when I shift and don't rattle the entire car (keep moving smoothly), I'm "leaning" on the clutch. This is mostly a problem when shifting from 1st to 2nd. It sometimes makes a whining protest when I do this, so I know it's not good.

But when I try to avoid the whining protest, I either peel out or rattle my brains. I can't seem to find the "sweet spot," yk?

Help?

[codex57]

Does anyone else have problems with that car? It could be the tranny and not you.

[Defrost]

No one else drives it. I don't even know anyone who knows how - oh, except my parents, I guess. I'm just embarrassed to ask my dad. :o

Hm. I suppose it's possible there's nothing wrong with my driving, but when it started with the whine I just immediately jumped to the conclusion "OMG I broke it!" :D

I guess I'll work up the nerve to ask my Dad.

[codex57]

Well, I've driven new sticks before and the car just sounds weird based on your descriptions. Of course, user error is always a possibility but you said you learned on sticks so since you know the theory, the weirdness of the "symptoms" suggests something was always wrong with the car (seen it once in person and been told a few stories of it happening to others). Sometimes, a car is a lemon. Even if new. At this point, I'm inclined to think there's something wrong with the tranny and that you were never the problem (or at worst, never the main problem).

[Defrost]

Could it be that it's a car and I'm used to driving trucks? It's a Mazda, after all - "zoom zoom" and all that. ;) It did get better when I got better tires (much less peeling out.)

[lovinwaves]

Read your post to my 'sticking driving' husband, and he concurs with, Codex, that it sounds like something is wrong with the vehicle.

[Defrost]

Huh.

Well then, I'll just call my Daddy and tell him my car is making a whiney protest when I shift, and leave out my own insecurities about my driving! :D

[Morganthe]

What happens if you let the clutch out slowly on a flat surface in 2nd gear? How easy is it to start moving?

It could be that your 1st gear is extremely low & short, so it affects everything into the next gear. DH tended to drive his rabbit from 2nd gear+ unless he was on an incline. He found it too lurchy & instead of shifting 20 feet from where he started off, it was easier to just be in second.

[Defrost]

What happens if you let the clutch out slowly on a flat surface in 2nd gear? How easy is it to start moving?

It could be that your 1st gear is extremely low & short, so it affects everything into the next gear. DH tended to drive his rabbit from 2nd gear+ unless he was on an incline. Then again, no matter what he drives, I'm nauseated by his style of lurch & jerk. :o

That makes sense, but when I try shifting to second sooner, it just struggles really hard. :(

[codex57]

I doubt there's enough power in the Mazda5 to really use 2nd to start as an option. Not without some massive shuddering or peeling out.

I've driven stick trucks. Older ones. A little different, but IMO, not relevant in your problem. Being forced to lean on the clutch is the main reason I think something is wrong with the car.

[codex57]

That makes sense, but when I try shifting to second sooner, it just struggles really hard. :(

That's not normal, and really suggests (to me) that there's something wrong with the car and not you. I've seen that a decent amount among the racers who blew out a clutch somehow. Having to "lean" on the clutch all the time can cause premature wear, but you shouldn't have had to lean on it in the first place.

What it could be I have no idea. Worn clutch, bad synchro. I'm not enough of a gearhead to be able to diagnose.

[lovinwaves]

Debbie, have you tried posting or searching about this at the Mazda5 Forums? http://www.mazdaforum.com/forumid_228/tt.htm I wonder if they would be of any help.

[Defrost]

Dude, there is an entire forum dedicated to my car!? :eek: I never knew!

:love:

[lovinwaves]

Now you can be their designated safety know-it-all, like Darren is on the Odyclub.com forum :p

Beware though...the doods on those forums are vicious regarding CPS. Heck, some of the women are too. :eek: I wish you the best of luck LOL.

[codex57]

Really? What would be the objection to CPS?

[Defrost]

Oh codex, you should come with me and we can find out! ;)

J/K - I'm not a troll.

Anymore.

[Morganthe]

Really? What would be the objection to CPS?

They take the attitude that if you're suggesting safer options such as harnessing a 2 year old instead of booster or nothing, you're condemning, classifying, & criticizing people as "Bad Parents." Somehow child safety practices in vehicles has become as touchy as topics such as faith & political opinions. (sigh)

[jodibug]

I just bought a new stick about 10 days ago.... a 2009 Fusion... and I don't have any trouble at all with my stick being new!

[Wineaux]

The best way I have ever found to learn how best to correctly shift a car is to find about a 20-30 degree incline, put yourself in the middle of it, and then use the clutch and the gas pedal to learn to keep from either going backwards down the incline, or forwards up the incline. Learn to keep the car perfectly stationary. You'll really learn the "feel" of your particular clutch that way. That's how I taught myself to drive my first stick shift smoothly and it's worked like a charm ever since.

[southpawboston]

i think what defrost might be experiencing is something that is fairly typical for japanese cars with manual transmissions. i like to call it the "rubber band" effect. the japanese simply haven't perfected engineering in the right "feel" to a clutch. i have been driving stick since i was 13 (i'm 39 now) and have owned close to a dozen manual tranny cars. still to this day, neither i nor my DW can drive a japanese manual tranny entirely smoothly without the car having a little "back and forth" bucking. your mazda5 has the same engine and tranny as my mazda3, so i can sort of understand where you're coming from. i *never* experienced this in german cars. they have perfected the driving experience, and the japanese simply have not been able to replicate that feeling of "one-ness" between driver and ca.

that said, you shouldn't be rattling your car when you shift, and you shouldn't be "leaning" on the clutch to smooth it out-- that will cause premature wear to your clutch disc, as this is essentially "riding the clutch" (allowing it to slip slightly).

i'm wondering if you're shifting too early in the engine's power range. if you upshift (shifting to a higher gear) at too low RPMs, the engine/tranny will "buck" and "kick", and you will feel like you are rattling the car. i'm guessing you feel this more when upshifting to 2nd and 3rd than you do with higher gears like 4th and 5th, right? you shouldn't really upshift before your RPMs reach about 2.5k minimum, and the higher you let them go, the smoother the shifts will be. this engine is also designed to rev high and the car "feels" better when you shift at higher RPMs, about 3-4k. also, when you are slowing down and need to downshift, you should do it before your RPMs drop below about 2.5k. i routinely upshift at about 4k RPM (unless i *really* need to drive like i stole the car, then i upshift at 5-6k RPM). this sounds high, but this engine actually performs best at these RPMs, at the price of reduced fuel economy.

[southpawboston]

Now you can be their designated safety know-it-all, like Darren is on the Odyclub.com forum :p

Beware though...the doods on those forums are vicious regarding CPS. Heck, some of the women are too. :eek: I wish you the best of luck LOL.

i wouldn't even go down that road... *especially* as a n00b. no one on a car forum likes a n00b coming and telling them what's best for them. trust me. i was an admin on a car forum. ;)

[southpawboston]

They take the attitude that if you're suggesting safer options such as harnessing a 2 year old instead of booster or nothing, you're condemning, classifying, & criticizing people as "Bad Parents." Somehow child safety practices in vehicles has become as touchy as topics such as faith & political opinions. (sigh)

not to mention that these are male-dominated forums, much the way that this forum is female-dominated. if i started chiming in on my opinions on BF, AP, homeschooling (all female-dominated activities) and telling all the moms here what's best, i'd have a new one ripped in no time. similarly, guys don't like being told that there's a better way to do something that's at least remotely car-related, which is their "domain". at least the guys who are regulars on a car forum, KWIM? the majority of them are car tinkerers who already do know much more about cars than the general public. granted, many of them are in fact completely safety-ignorant (and it irks me to no end, trust me).

[Defrost]

i'm wondering if you're shifting too early in the engine's power range. if you upshift (shifting to a higher gear) at too low RPMs, the engine/tranny will "buck" and "kick", and you will feel like you are rattling the car. i'm guessing you feel this more when upshifting to 2nd and 3rd than you do with higher gears like 4th and 5th, right? you shouldn't really upshift before your RPMs reach about 2.5k minimum, and the higher you let them go, the smoother the shifts will be. this engine is also designed to rev high and the car "feels" better when you shift at higher RPMs, about 3-4k. also, when you are slowing down and need to downshift, you should do it before your RPMs drop below about 2.5k. i routinely upshift at about 4k RPM (unless i *really* need to drive like i stole the car, then i upshift at 5-6k RPM). this sounds high, but this engine actually performs best at these RPMs, at the price of reduced fuel economy.

Um, wow - yeah, that might be it. I cringe at the thought of shifting at that high! Neither of my trucks had RPM gauges, so I just learned to shift "by ear" with them, but this car does have an RPM gauge, so I know what you're talking about... and it sounds SOOO high!

Oh, and when I said "rattle" I meant that bucking sensation you get - I just used rattle because that's what my brain feels like!

Thanks for the input; I'll try it at work tonight. Should be... fun...

[codex57]

i think what defrost might be experiencing is something that is fairly typical for japanese cars with manual transmissions. i like to call it the "rubber band" effect. the japanese simply haven't perfected engineering in the right "feel" to a clutch. i have been driving stick since i was 13 (i'm 39 now) and have owned close to a dozen manual tranny cars. still to this day, neither i nor my DW can drive a japanese manual tranny entirely smoothly without the car having a little "back and forth" bucking. your mazda5 has the same engine and tranny as my mazda3, so i can sort of understand where you're coming from. i *never* experienced this in german cars. they have perfected the driving experience, and the japanese simply have not been able to replicate that feeling of "one-ness" between driver and ca.


Hmm, my experience has been much more manufacturer specific differences.

Honda and BMW make the best clutches. Hands down. Like buttah! Honda is a little boring in that the clutch takeup point is so generous, it's almost like driving an automatic. Throw in the Mazda Miata stick and those are the best.

Toyota and Volkswagen (a Japanese and German example for comparison sake) are much trickier to drive smoothly IMO.

Shifting too early does sound like a possible cause, but I shift all the time at 2500. I do it to experiment with gas savings at different shift points. Now, I've never driven a Mazda5, but I've shifted at 2500 rpm in enough economy cars that I'd hope the Mazda5 would have enough power to not buck at 2500 rpm.

[beeman]

I think SBP hit the head with the RPM's. Cars in general need to be shifted at higher RPM's than trucks do. Any manual trucks I've driven liked to be shifted around 1500 - 2000 RPM (lower range being diesel), and that's likely where you were shifting on your trucks. Shifting at higher RPM's will likely make it smoother. Have you tried shifting without a clutch? It's not recommended to do this as a common practice, however, if you are shifting at the right RPM's it should smoothly slide into the next gear. The clutch also will be likely well worn by now if you've been "Riding the clutch" to make it smooth :twocents: .

[codex57]

Errr, let's not try and teach her clutchless shifting.

They take the attitude that if you're suggesting safer options such as harnessing a 2 year old instead of booster or nothing, you're condemning, classifying, & criticizing people as "Bad Parents." Somehow child safety practices in vehicles has become as touchy as topics such as faith & political opinions. (sigh)

Very interesting. All the car boards I've been on are not opposed to 5 point racing harnesses, roll bars, etc. It's surprising to me that they'd make the leap from safer car seat use to bad parenting. I got into car seats cuz if I couldn't install racing seats with 5 point harnesses for me, my kid could be in one (it's why I bought a Recaro).

[southpawboston]

Um, wow - yeah, that might be it. I cringe at the thought of shifting at that high! Neither of my trucks had RPM gauges, so I just learned to shift "by ear" with them, but this car does have an RPM gauge, so I know what you're talking about... and it sounds SOOO high!

larger engines (especially diesels!) generate much more torque (power) at low RPMs, and aren't designed to rev high. therefore all the shifting is done a much lower RPMs. even in top gear, a big diesel will lumber along at highway speeds at 1800-2500 RPM, whereas a small 4-cyl car's engine will run at about 3000-4000 RPM at the same highway speeds. that's just the nature of engines.

definitely don't worry about revving that mazda engine! it *loves* to be revved and it doesn't hurt it one bit. try shifting at 4k RPM and see if the shifts are smoother. let me know! :thumbsup:

Hmm, my experience has been much more manufacturer specific differences.

Honda and BMW make the best clutches. Hands down. Like buttah! Honda is a little boring in that the clutch takeup point is so generous, it's almost like driving an automatic. Throw in the Mazda Miata stick and those are the best.

Toyota and Volkswagen (a Japanese and German example for comparison sake) are much trickier to drive smoothly IMO.

Shifting too early does sound like a possible cause, but I shift all the time at 2500. I do it to experiment with gas savings at different shift points. Now, I've never driven a Mazda5, but I've shifted at 2500 rpm in enough economy cars that I'd hope the Mazda5 would have enough power to not buck at 2500 rpm.

i have owned 3 audis, 3 VWs, and one BMW. all had very smooth engagement. actually, the audis and VWs were the most refined of them all. this seems to contradict your experience. of course, there are exceptions. the mazda miata and higher end japanese sports cars are going to feel different, but my observations were based on everyday family cars-- VW golfs, jettas, honda accords, BMW 325, etc...

i have also owned mazdas, hondas, and subarus (no toyotas). hondas were the smoothest of those three cars (in terms of clutch engagement), but still, all three of those cars were "jerkier" than any of the german cars i've had. i also had a chance to drive a few saabs (although i never owned one). they all had a very "germanic feel" to them.

there may be something that is specific to a model or model range, but i think overall, the "feel" of the clutches are simply different between japanese and german cars.

the mazda MZR engine (the 2.3L engine in the mazda3 and mazda5) has a very nice power band from about 2500-6500, but there's something about this engine... it just doesn't seem happy below 2500 RPMs. i suspect it's just in the engine management programming, something i haven't been too happy about in this car. i'm fairly certain it has to do with the management in the mazda, because the automatic versions of this car that i have driven are smooth as butter, at any RPM. damn electronics!

i have also driven other economy cars and not had the same difficulty at lower RPMs that i have had with this car. it's actually the single biggest peeve (and about only peeve) i have with this car.

[codex57]

Very interesting. We're talking about the same cars for the most part but had vastly different experiences.

[bubbaray]

I've always driven standard/manual trannys from the day I turned 16 (learned to drive on one) until 3 years ago when I got my Ody. I don't really want to admit my age, but if you guessed a quarter century of driving a standard, you'd be correct, LOL.

ITA with SouthpawBoston. I've owned 2 Mazdas and they definitely wanna upshift at 2500RPM at a minumum, closer to 3000RPM. Both of my Mazda's had issues with the heat shields on the bottom of the vehicle too, though that is going back a few years. However, I mention that because that can cause a rattling when the RPM is too low (under 2000RPM).

If you are used to driving a truck, the shift pattern in a Mazda is gonna feel verrrrry different. Like SPB said, don't be afraid to stop (ETA -- should read STOMP) on it -- its designed to take those demands (just don't redline every time, though I doubt you would).

Personally, I like the clutches in German vehicles much better than Japanese vehicles.

Speed shifting is kinda fun. Not for the faint of heart....

GL!

[Defrost]

Okay, so I feel like a complete fool. :rolleyes:

I just got home from work, and after making "horrible" amounts of noise and torturing my engine all night (to my mind, at least)... it's shifting just fine. Like, I was having those weird flashback-y feelings to driving my old truck. Kind of that "oh, right, I remember this - you ride the bike this way" feeling.

And holy crow that thing can move... well, for a "van," I mean. More than I'm used to, that's for sure!

Thanks everyone!

[Morganthe]

Don't feel badly. I swear my car's transmission is out to make me seem a loony hypochondriac freaky paranoid woman to the repair guys. :rolleyes: It's been getting worse on shifting, especially at the 2-3rd gear mark.
Took it in for a 'free' servicing yesterday (because it was rebuilt a 2nd time in August :thumbsdown: ) had it analyzed, computer hookup, went over with a fine tooth comb. They and a second neutral opinion swear it's in awesome shape.

It's been running like a dream ever since. (sigh)

Makes me really hate automatics since this is the only one I've ever had.

[southpawboston]

Okay, so I feel like a complete fool. :rolleyes:

I just got home from work, and after making "horrible" amounts of noise and torturing my engine all night (to my mind, at least)... it's shifting just fine. Like, I was having those weird flashback-y feelings to driving my old truck. Kind of that "oh, right, I remember this - you ride the bike this way" feeling.

And holy crow that thing can move... well, for a "van," I mean. More than I'm used to, that's for sure!

Thanks everyone!

take it from me, you're not torturing the engine by revving it! if anything, all that shaking from low-RPM shifting is more torture on the motor, the mounts and drivetrain. i've been revving engines my whole life and they've never gotten hurt by it :).

small engines make most of their power high up on the RPM range. as the ads say, "zoom-zoom!" ;) :thumbsup:

[codex57]

take it from me, you're not torturing the engine by revving it! if anything, all that shaking from low-RPM shifting is more torture on the motor, the mounts and drivetrain. i've been revving engines my whole life and they've never gotten hurt by it :).

small engines make most of their power high up on the RPM range. as the ads say, "zoom-zoom!" ;) :thumbsup:

Yeah, no worries. It seems counterintuitive at first, but car engines (especially the small ones) like being revved. Might be psychological (or might be cuz they have so little torque), but all the Honda cars I've driven seemed to run smoother and better if you use the full rpm range consistently. Especially the VTECH ones. 8000 rpm is FUN!

[Defrost]

You two are going to make me ill! I was getting nervous just putting it up to 4000! :p