Who takes care of the seats?

[unityco]

Our gender imbalance on this board got me to thinking...

In general, in the wider world, which parent do you think "takes care" of the carseats? I don't mean as far as daily use, but for installing/choosing, etc..

I would guess dads (though obviously not in my household, or many of yours!)

[ketchupqueen]

In my community, kids tend to ride around with mom more than dad (in 2 car households, which most, unlike ours, seem to be.) So mom tends to be the one in charge of "her car" and with "her car" comes the carseats.

I've found that because of this moms are often more receptive to carseat info than dads around here. Many of the dads I've talked to thank me for the info but say, "But it's up to my wife since she drives the kids usually."

[unityco]

In my community, kids tend to ride around with mom more than dad (in 2 car households, which most, unlike ours, seem to be.) So mom tends to be the one in charge of "her car" and with "her car" comes the carseats.

I've found that because of this moms are often more receptive to carseat info than dads around here. Many of the dads I've talked to thank me for the info but say, "But it's up to my wife since she drives the kids usually."

Hmm... that's interesting. I always think of dads as being the "car guys" and therefore more invested in what "gear" goes in their cars. I could totally see less dads asking for advice though, the same way they're loath to ask for directions, lol :p. Of course, my own history biases me. My dad was a mechanic, and he was the *only* one (allowed) to make any decisions on cars and what went in them - whether it was he or mom who would be driving it.

[cpsaddict]

I have always been a bit baffled when moms say they have to wait for DH to install the seat. I guess I am just really independent, because I would not wait. In our house, DH knows they are important, but hasn't a clue how to use or install one and he's very handy with everything. Just not car seats.

[Gypsy]

I don't know.

Obviously here we have a lot more moms/women, however when I first found this place I was SHOCKED that it was mostly women. I thought that this was a very physical & manly kind of thing dads could do, and do well for the well being of their children and when I saw how few men posted here I was a little disappointed.

Based on the numbers here, I'd say women, but based on my pre-conceived ideas that this would be a great thing for dads to do, I want to say men.

So I voted both.

[minismom]

I always kind of figured it'd be the woman, just because moms tend to be with the kids more often. I chose which carseat to buy when I was pregnant (and found this board) like any other baby gear dh didnt care what I got. But he did say once it's because he trusts me to make the right choices and he could tell I was researching. I think we have only one friend who's dh had to take charge of choosing the car seat (and the stroller) cause the wife couldn't care less. He knew he had to do it. I thought it was weird she didnt care.
Now dh knows I'm the expert and does what I say, but there was a time when I would ask him to help install, and we first installed the infant seat together.

ETA: DH (like a lot of men in general) have this atittude that they can look at something and figure out exactly how to do it without reading the instructions. When we were adjusting the seat and putting together the stroller I had to keep up when reading the instructions cause he was already doing the next step. So I wouldnt have trust him to do it alone LOL

[Pixels]

I am the one who does the research, cuz I care more. DH would buy anything that fit the child (according to the box), and might read the stickers on the seat, but probably not the manual unless he really felt he needed to in order to find the answer to a problem he was having. He does say that he's glad that I do the research, because he knows it's covered and she's safe. It probably also makes him a bit more lazy in this department though.

DH is very "trainable." I have been able to teach him where the chest clip goes and how tight the harness straps need to be. We have a base for the bucket seat in his car so all he has to do is snap it in and lower the handle. Everything else is my department (install, harness height adjustment, monitoring for outgrowing). My brother has learned how to install the Latch base for the bucket seat in his latch-equipped car and tighten it appropriately.

When DD gets her Radians for Christmas, DH and brother will both learn how to install it properly. I didn't worry about it too much with the bucket since she'll be in it for such a relatively short time, but I fully expect the Radians to expire before she outgrows them, so I think it is important for all of her primary caretakers to know how to install her seat. Especially because brother will be installing a seat every single time she rides in his car.

[Qarin]

I have always been a bit baffled when moms say they have to wait for DH to install the seat. I guess I am just really independent, because I would not wait. In our house, DH knows they are important, but hasn't a clue how to use or install one and he's very handy with everything. Just not car seats.

:yeahthat:

[TXAggieTech]

We do pretty equally in our cars, mainly because I'm lazy and he can do just as good a job as I can.

[Holly]

I'm in charge of picking out what seats we will have, and installing them, because I am a lot more passionate about it than he is. He of course wants our kids to be safe, but he trusts me, and I pretty much make all the baby and child gear decisions, as long as I dont make us go bankrupt, he couldnt care less.

But I do have him come out and pull the belt/latch strap/tether strap even tighter for me after I've already done it, just to make sure it's good, or because lately with being pregnant it's hard for me to tighten it just that last little bit.
He knows how to properly put our kids in too, and I'd trust him to install a seat by himself if needed, he knows it's important for them to be tight.

[LISmama810]

Interesting question. I think in the "real world" (i.e., not on this board), the moms usually choose the seats, but the dads install them. "Installing" things (especially car things) is a "man" thing. (Like putting together the crib.)

Before I turned into a car seat fanatic, I always had DH do the installs. Now I don't let him touch them :)

[disbugsmomma]

I am the one who takes care of the seats in our house. DH doesn't really care what seat she is in as long as she is in one. He did, however, insist that she be turned ff in his truck. Neither he nor IL's would listen to me in that regard. :( She is still rf in my car though. Dh usually tightens the straps enough, but I always double check. I'm also the one who installs the seats.

[Farm_Mama]

Both my husband and I are getting more and more into car seats. With baby #3 coming very very soon he's really gotten into it. I think he's enjoyed the challenge of making 3-across in a Civic work. He's crazy nuts about Radians and Britax and for some reason thinks that anything with an Evenflo label is junk. I think it's funny. I still do all the research, I'm the inquisitive one about everything though. While I do most of the installs, I'll have him do that last bit of tightening that I just can't manage. I've always thought of car seats, like most other baby gear as a mama thing. Since I use the stuff the most, I make the decisions. My husband trusts me to make informed, frugal choices with most of our purchases and car seats are no different.

[skylinphoto]

I pick out all the baby gear.. that includes carseats. My dh is very involved though. I install them and show him how to do it..and I'd trust him to install the seats if I weren't there.
He wants our kids to be as safe as possible in the car just like me and he's the one who insists that no one but us drive with them until they are old enough to know what's right and wrong carseat-wise and tell the adult how to do it right or do it themselves.
He's very good about these things. He watches the crash test videos, reads the reviews and such.

[natysr]

Well, I voted Mom because that is what it is now. But in the baby bucket days, it was Dad. When first installing the carseat base, I was Pregnant, and swollen and waddly and itchy. I also had a preconceived notion that it took brute strength to get a seat in correctly. So, I read the manuel aloud to DH while we looked at the seat on the living room floor. Then he went outside and installed it.

However, once we moved to a convertable seat, I took over.

[papooses]

Many of the families I see are single mom households like mine . . . however, almost all of the married couples fit the theory: IME, the dads do the installing....

[seamonkeys]

I have always been a bit baffled when moms say they have to wait for DH to install the seat. I guess I am just really independent, because I would not wait. In our house, DH knows they are important, but hasn't a clue how to use or install one and he's very handy with everything. Just not car seats.

:yeahthat: I have a friend who always relied on DH to do it. I finally told her once that she needed to make sure she knew how to do it too. Still not sure if she does, but she is the one who took them to a seat check, so hopefully she watched the tech.

[jdubsm]

I always install the seats even before I became a tech. I don't think dh has ever installed one without me there to help.

[G8r4evr]

I chose the seat and my husband installed it. Not because I didn't think that I could install it, but at 8 months pregnant, I was so swollen and miserable that work was the only activity I could handle. LOL

[safeinthecar]

I do. But that's because I'm me:D

DH is a research everything kind of guy, so I know that if he didn't have a resident expert he would still make great choices. I can totally trust him to make choices based on careful research and not just chose the cheapest thing on the shelf.

When we have another one, I'm planning to use the RN from birth in my car, but he will be in charge of finding the seat he wants for his car. I'll help be part of the process, but the final choice will be totally up to him since he's the one that will have to make it work on a daily basis. It will be interesting to see what he chooses, especially considering he will be looking to do 3IAR in a Corolla.

[Blondie87]

I voted mom cuz DH is pretty clueless when it comes to car seats and just lets it be my deal. I have had him help install a couple seats before though. The Boulevard once so that I could get it much more upright, and the True Fit recently cuz it is so hard to get it in with the seatbelt that it needed to be a 2 person job.

[christineka]

I was the one to take my kiddies to the car seat check. There I learned how to install and use a car seat correctly. Dh doesn't have the time or desire to learn. All he knows is that I've researched this and I know what I'm doing.

Prior to the seat check dh and I both installed seats (incorrectly) about equally and shopped for them together (buying the cheapest suitable ones).

Oh, and my dh isn't a car guy. He knows hardly anything, following in his father's footsteps.

[Kat_Momof3]

I put clicky box.

Reason being, I think it depends a LOT on if we are going to talk about military.

Where I grew up, where I had Damian, where I still have family, it was the dads... big time.

A lot of the non-military folk around here are that way... the husbands are with the wives carseat shopping.

but the military wives... even if their hubbies are around... unless it's their first time AND hubby is there AND they are dragging him around... maybe because hubby is gone so much.... it's the moms.

up where my ILs live... it tends to be more like where I grew up... except for my ILs, their kids (but they were raised military), and my niece (only one of the grand kids to have kids yet)... because she was raised to believe women should be independent and it was part of transporting the kids primarily, caring for the kids primarily, aka... part of primary caregiver.

but her hubby is also in school AND working, so that may add to it.

I don't usually understand the concept of "getting my husband" to choose the carseat, buy the carseat, and/or install the carseat, unless he's the primary caregiver.

I don't get why the woman wouldn't just try to do it and/or do it herself.

Now if she KNOWS her husband is better at it... or she's tried and not been able to exert the force needed to compress the vehicle seat adequetly, then hey... go to it.

But when you have little Billy or Betty in an infant seat that is outgrown because Daddy hasn't had a chance to put the carseat in yet, it makes me want to SCREAM!!

[Kat_Momof3]

I chose the seat and my husband installed it. Not because I didn't think that I could install it, but at 8 months pregnant, I was so swollen and miserable that work was the only activity I could handle. LOL

that is a VERY good reason.... even the most excellent of teaching techs at a seat check would not make a 3rd trimester pregnant woman install a seat.

but you will have another chance when the time comes for the next seat!

[*Spoiledinmyhouseofblue*]

For the life of me I could never install a carseat before I got on my carseat boards about 2 years ago.. Now, I can install one with my eyes closed LOL!

Before that..it was Dh. He always likes to check them to make sure they are tight enough LOL!

I am the one who chooses what carseat to buy and now I pretty much install them all the time(especially daycare kiddos, because the carseats come in and out of the car so much during the week).

[luvmy2]

We both drive the kids equally, but I am in charge of the car seats. My dh knows very well about how to buckle them in properly, remove their coats, etc... :thumbsup:

[beebear23]

I voted 'mom'.. Mom does everything in this house. If mom were gone/sick, the house would fall apart, nothing would get done, no one would get anywhere(school, drs appts., etc). DH would manage to get to work, he MIGHT get C off to school on time, but that's about it...

[Gypsy]

even the most excellent of teaching techs at a seat check would not make a 3rd trimester pregnant woman install a seat.




Why do you think that?

I'm an excellent educator and one of my re-certification seat checks was a convertible for a mom in her 8th month of pregnancy.

She installed the seat.

I don't install seats unless there is a good reason why the parent can't - seriously, like a wheelchair or arm in a cast or if she was on bedrest/complicated pregnancy.

My instructor was *very* impressed, and told me that she "never has to worry about what parents are going to learn" from me or the quality of the service I provide them.

Pregnancy is NOT a disability, and pregnant moms need to know how to install carseats too, even in their 3rd trimester.

*I* have always installed my own seats with the exception of when I was pregnant with my first and we took it to a tech, but my husband told me that he knew right then I was going to be good at carseats because when we got home I was playing with it, and knelt into the base to tighten it even more - 8 months pregnant.

With my son, when I was pregnant with him, I installed his seat too - 8 months pregnant.

[G8r4evr]

that is a VERY good reason.... even the most excellent of teaching techs at a seat check would not make a 3rd trimester pregnant woman install a seat.

but you will have another chance when the time comes for the next seat!

Absolutely....I can't wait! :D Now, if I could just decide which convertible seat we are going to go with!

[G8r4evr]

Why do you think that?

I'm an excellent educator and one of my re-certification seat checks was a convertible for a mom in her 8th month of pregnancy.

She installed the seat.

I don't install seats unless there is a good reason why the parent can't - seriously, like a wheelchair or arm in a cast or if she was on bedrest/complicated pregnancy.

My instructor was *very* impressed, and told me that she "never has to worry about what parents are going to learn" from me or the quality of the service I provide them.

Pregnancy is NOT a disability, and pregnant moms need to know how to install carseats too, even in their 3rd trimester.

*I* have always installed my own seats with the exception of when I was pregnant with my first and we took it to a tech, but my husband told me that he knew right then I was going to be good at carseats because when we got home I was playing with it, and knelt into the base to tighten it even more - 8 months pregnant.

With my son, when I was pregnant with him, I installed his seat too - 8 months pregnant.


:bow:



I was so swollen at 8 mths pregnant, I had to beg my Dr to let me work for a few more weeks and he agreed, as long as I kept my feet up and checked my BP regularly. So nope, I was not about to try installing a car seat in that condition, and certainly not in 80 degree weather.

My husband on the other hand did a great job! :thumbsup::thumbsup:

[beebear23]

I installed my seat at 8-9 months pregnant.. I don't see what the big deal is.. And I had a bum left leg that I could barely move.

[rodentranger]

In our house, DH knows they are important, but hasn't a clue how to use or install one and he's very handy with everything. Just not car seats.

I'm in charge of picking out what seats we will have, and installing them, because I am a lot more passionate about it than he is. He of course wants our kids to be safe, but he trusts me, and I pretty much make all the baby and child gear decisions, as long as I dont make us go bankrupt, he couldnt care less.

But I do have him come out and pull the belt/latch strap/tether strap even tighter for me after I've already done it, just to make sure it's good, or because lately with being pregnant it's hard for me to tighten it just that last little bit.
He knows how to properly put our kids in too, and I'd trust him to install a seat by himself if needed, he knows it's important for them to be tight.
That's how we are too.

Pregnancy is NOT a disability, and pregnant moms need to know how to install carseats too, even in their 3rd trimester.

*I* have always installed my own seats with the exception of when I was pregnant with my first and we took it to a tech, but my husband told me that he knew right then I was going to be good at carseats because when we got home I was playing with it, and knelt into the base to tighten it even more - 8 months pregnant.

With my son, when I was pregnant with him, I installed his seat too - 8 months pregnant.

:thumbsup:I (re)installed four seats in the last week and will install my TF when it gets here tomorrow. I'm due in a week, have been contracting for two weeks and my sciatic nerve is so pinched my left leg keeps buckling on me.

[southpawboston]

the way i see it, it's simple. IMHO, carseats are a *car* accessory before a *child* accessory. therefore, the person who takes care of the car takes care of the carseats. anything that installs or otherwise has anything to do with the car is my domain, since the car is my domain. if we were talking about high-chairs or booster seats for the kitchen, those would fall under DW's domain.

[rodentranger]

the way i see it, it's simple. IMHO, carseats are a *car* accessory before a *child* accessory. therefore, the person who takes care of the car takes care of the carseats. anything that installs or otherwise has anything to do with the car is my domain, since the car is my domain. if we were talking about high-chairs or booster seats for the kitchen, those would fall under DW's domain.

Really? I'm curious why. For me, the child seat is a child thing. It will move to whichever car has the child in it, regardless of whether it's my car, DH's car, SIL's car or whoever. It is required for the child, but not for the car.

[Mama!]

My dh knows zilch about carseats except that I'm nuts when it comes to them. He doesnt' install at all.

[G8r4evr]

That's how we are too.


:thumbsup:I (re)installed four seats in the last week and will install my TF when it gets here tomorrow. I'm due in a week, have been contracting for two weeks and my sciatic nerve is so pinched my left leg keeps buckling on me.

Why, when I am 8 months pregnant and miserable, would I install the car seat when my husband is perfectly capable? I don't get it...We have a seat in both cars (he installed both) and neither seat has been moved since they were first installed.

When she moves up to a convertible in the next few months, sure I'm up for installing it,,,but for anyone to infer that myself (or any other pregnant woman who let's their husband install the car seat) is in the wrong, is way out of line. :twocents:

[southpawboston]

Really? I'm curious why. For me, the child seat is a child thing. It will move to whichever car has the child in it, regardless of whether it's my car, DH's car, SIL's car or whoever. It is required for the child, but not for the car.

that's a good point, but it's still a mechanical device that installs in the car, making it a car thing in my mind.

[safeinthecar]

Why, when I am 8 months pregnant and miserable, would I install the car seat when my husband is perfectly capable? I don't get it...We have a seat in both cars (he installed both) and neither seat has been moved since they were first installed.

When she moves up to a convertible in the next few months, sure I'm up for installing it,,,but for anyone to infer that myself (or any other pregnant woman who let's their husband install the car seat) is in the wrong, is way out of line. :twocents:

I doubt she was trying to imply that a PG woman letting her DH install the seat is wrong. I think she was just defending techs who successfully teach a PG woman how to easily install a seat.

[LISmama810]

I doubt she was trying to imply that a PG woman letting her DH install the seat is wrong. I think she was just defending techs who successfully teach a PG woman how to easily install a seat.

Agreed.

When I do checks for expectant parents, usually both are there. A majority of the time, the dads do the install, but QUITE often, the moms do, too. I certainly don't make the moms do it if the dads are there, but I don't assume that they won't, either.

Now, if I have a hugely pregnant mom by herself, I'll ask her if she feels comfortable installing it. Usually she does. If there's some reason she can't, I at least have her help in some way (routing the seatbelt, buckling it, etc.) They're really good for putting weight on the base, too! :p

[mama2Cecelia]

I had to vote both equally

I'm a tech, and dh is a sahd......he transports dd way more often than I.
We had 2 MAs and now use 2 Regents that have been moved many times

after checking his installations I am satisfied

y'know........if mama ain't happy :whistle:

~~Kris

CPST and mama to C. 5 yrs, 47 in, 58 lbs, riding in the tallest harness slot in her Cougar & Madison Regents and occasionally a PW or TB

[shauburg]

From my IRL experience with friends and family, I'd say moms do more of the shopping/choosing, while dads do more of the installing.

Therefore I've given many friends and family members advice on choosing a seat because moms (in general) like to ask other moms for advice. This also means I've hardly ever checked any friends or family members seat installations, because dads (in general) tend not to ask others, especially women, for "technical" advice. :rolleyes:

[southpawboston]

y'know........if mama ain't happy :whistle:


then no one is happy :whistle:

sorry, i couldn't resist... inside joke between DW and me...

[sparkyd]

Definitely Mom (me) in our house. I'm the researcher and instruction reader and there is no way I was going to let DH install our car seats without me at least present to ensure instructions were being followed. For our bucket I installed it myself and just got him to add some muscle to the process to get the base in tighter. With our Marathon I installed it wrong at first and adding his muscle to the situation made it worse. He was ready to go all "engineer" on me and rig something to make it look right (to his eye) without ever even asking for the instruction manual. That was when I found this site. :love: Once I corrected my mistake I installed it myself no problem and have never asked for his help with an install since.

Now I just have to check on the seat in his truck every now and then to make sure everything is being done properly with buckling DS in. Like a couple of weeks ago when I discovered he had moved up to a higher harness height on our True Fit (the down side of no re-thread harness adjustment - too easy :thumbsdown:). I quickly explained the "at-or below the shoulders" rule (RF) and I'm hoping he'll ask first before he goes messing with the seat next time.

So, yeah, definitely my department!

[Melizerd]

hmm I said mom because I think mom probably cleans the carseat. For installation though probably the Dads. I hear SOOO many women say "I'm not strong enough to put the seat in, or I can't get it tight enough". We all know that your size doesn't matter.

[tanyaandallie]

At seat checks I definitely see more dad's installing seats. Most of the mom's say that did the installing.

In our family I have always done the installing, even when I wasn't very good at it! Dh is not so mechanical and I'm pretty, ummmm, particular?

[rodentranger]

Why, when I am 8 months pregnant and miserable, would I install the car seat when my husband is perfectly capable? I don't get it...We have a seat in both cars (he installed both) and neither seat has been moved since they were first installed.

When she moves up to a convertible in the next few months, sure I'm up for installing it,,,but for anyone to infer that myself (or any other pregnant woman who let's their husband install the car seat) is in the wrong, is way out of line. :twocents:

I doubt she was trying to imply that a PG woman letting her DH install the seat is wrong. I think she was just defending techs who successfully teach a PG woman how to easily install a seat.
Yes, thank you. I was not implying that it is wrong to let DH install the seat. But to say that a pg can't install a seat is incorrect also. I think it is easier for some women in some cars. I drive a mid-size SUV, DH drives a small commuter. Installing in his car was definitely not fun! If I felt like DH would install it to my obsessive standards, I would have had him do it. But "good enough" isn't, in my book.

[Kat_Momof3]

I have installed seats in my 3rd trimester, too... and I'm no small thing to start with.

I just meant that most techs will, if the pregnant woman doesn't want to because of being in discomfort or unable to squeeze in the vehicle that way or whatever reason, be more accomodating and let them have their hubbies learn to or, if they are alone, just encourage them to bring it back to learn how once baby is born.

I've seen many a tiny woman in her third trimester look like she was going to fall backwards just walking with her purse... let alone trying to install a carseat, carrying a carseat, or managing other kids.

everyone is different and I've heard on this (and other boards) of techs not making pregnant ladies in their third (and some even in their second) trimester install the bases/seats (second would be for more high risk pregnancies, twins, etc.)

[babyfloridagator2003]

I do as DH is clueless. If he had his way DS would be in a booster seat by now...LOL

[Twinklefae]

I do, as Dh doesn't care. I had him and my FIL do my infant bucket, and they added a strap to keep the front from wiggling.

I also do my friend's as her DH as did her seat wrong and she doesn't feel she has the strength. (and I like playing with seats)

[debbiemomof2]

I researched, selected, and installed all our carseats. Dh is not mechanically inclined and can't read instructions to save his life. One of our cars it is easy to install carseats in, the other I have to get a bit of help from dh to get the seatbelt/latch strap tight enough.

My brother/sil were both involved and able to install their kids' carseats.

[elle7715]

DH has never chosen, installed, or adjusted a carseat. Ever.
When I was pregnant with DD I installed it once I was 36 weeks and off of bedrest. We had to take it out when we moved because we needed to use the whole backseat. Go figure, I had her soon after we moved and the carseat wasn't installed. After we were discharged DH waited with her inside the hospital while I installed it in the freezing cold with a 3rd degree episiotomy (thanks idiot doctor :mad:).
I assemble everything though. Entertainment centers, baby gear, bookshelves, toys...you name it. DH readily admits he can't understand directions well. I think some moms are intimidated by that stuff but really, everyone should know how to install the carseat. It's not a one time installation, you will have to move it eventually, and both parents should know how. At least that's what I keep telling DH. :rolleyes:

[thepeach80]

I put dad. I hear that more than anything else 'well, my DH is in charge of, he put it, etc'. I think mom may have more say in which seat to get (based on patterns alone, that's how we chose for #1), but dad puts it in etc.

[unityco]

I put dad. I hear that more than anything else 'well, my DH is in charge of, he put it, etc'. I think mom may have more say in which seat to get (based on patterns alone, that's how we chose for #1), but dad puts it in etc.

That's what I was thinking. Judging by people's posts, I don't think I phrased my poll question well enough, though. :o I think most people answered for what's true in their *own* household, not for what they think the rest of the world does.

I find it interesting that, judging by this site, when parents decide to go beyond the manual and Consumer Reports, they seem to be mostly women.

[thepeach80]

I give pg moms the option of putting the seat in by themselves, if they are single most will do it. Those who are married and just have no DH there, are about 50/50 and very few w/ DH's there take me up on that offer. I did my last check when I was 38 wks pg w/ Ilana (though I was mostly a teacher to a new tech) so I know some moms are capable of doing it, especially for first baby in a car etc. I put 2 seats in today and about killed myself doing it and I did NOT feel well afterwards. One was in my 3rd row which is extremely hard to get to right now for me and I almost cried doing it, but no one was there to help me so I had no choice (except not taking it out in the first place). I will NOT be climbing into cars at our check next month, I didn't do much last month either. I like to talk more than get into the cars anyways, it was actually nice having a partner last time. ;)

[irishmama3]

Me, all me. Dh doesn't even pay attention to when the kids have outgrown their seats :rolleyes: I have to check how they are buckled in when we go places, because even after almost FIVE years of buckling our kids into seats, he only gets the chest clip or tightens the straps right about 75% of the time. And forget reading the manual for anything, especially installs. Sigh.