Please tell me, what do you say when people have convinced themselves it's ok to

[childrestraintsafety]

forward face at such a ridiculously young age. I.e. 5/6/7 months etc. It breaks my heart and distresses me I don't know what to say to these people to make them believe it's NOT ok.

[skaterbabscpst]

Internal decapitation.

Although, to be honest my odlest was FF at 5 mos. However, in my defense this was in 1996, and he exceeded the RF weight limit of every RF seat currenntly on the market. (20 lbs was pretty much the max, and that's why we see so much of that today.)

[childrestraintsafety]

Internal decapitation.

Although, to be honest my odlest was FF at 5 mos. However, in my defense this was in 1996, and he exceeded the RF weight limit of every RF seat currenntly on the market. (20 lbs was pretty much the max, and that's why we see so much of that today.)

Well from my understanding, at that time (bout 1996), the recommendation was 6 months anyway. But I feel, there's no excuse with all the information available THESE DAYS to think it's ok to forward face. It's something that just really confuzzles me honestly.

[skaterbabscpst]

I totally agree. That's why my daughter was RF to 2 1/2. lol She'd still be RF if the limits weren't so low - she weighs 35 lbs.

[Dreaming_of_Speed]

I explain internal decapitation in the most brutal and gruesome way. I was discussing the idea with DF the other day and it even freaked him out a little! I've found talking about it before they turn them is best. I like to talk with those in the car seat section of stores and explain "well, i would suggest this seat b/c it rear faces longer and the longer you rear face the better. If the child is turned before their body is ready in an accident they can be killed from the forces of the accident. its called internal decapitation, he/she looks absolutely perfect but the forces have pulled so hard on their neck so quickly it literally cuts the spine in half and kills them instantly. No one knows exactly when this risk is reduced, in fact some adults have died of it, its best to use a rear facing car seat as long as possible to make sure your child's neck is as advanced as possible before forward facing." It works every time and pretty much ends the 'feet scrunched' issue. Most parents i've explained it to decide for themselves a RFing seat is their only option. I've ran into one person who didnt listen, my own SIL, she only turned DN rear facing b/c he threw things at her while she drove.

[childrestraintsafety]

I explain internal decapitation in the most brutal and gruesome way. I was discussing the idea with DF the other day and it even freaked him out a little! I've found talking about it before they turn them is best. I like to talk with those in the car seat section of stores and explain "well, i would suggest this seat b/c it rear faces longer and the longer you rear face the better. If the child is turned before their body is ready in an accident they can be killed from the forces of the accident. its called internal decapitation, he/she looks absolutely perfect but the forces have pulled so hard on their neck so quickly it literally cuts the spine in half and kills them instantly. No one knows exactly when this risk is reduced, in fact some adults have died of it, its best to use a rear facing car seat as long as possible to make sure your child's neck is as advanced as possible before forward facing." It works every time and pretty much ends the 'feet scrunched' issue. Most parents i've explained it to decide for themselves a RFing seat is their only option. I've ran into one person who didnt listen, my own SIL, she only turned DN rear facing b/c he threw things at her while she drove.

Do you mind if I add some of what you wrote to my website?

[Dreaming_of_Speed]

No, go ahead! I will warn you most of that is stuff i read about it posted by other members here, i havent studied the condition in detail myself so i dont know if that is entirely accurate. (but i assume its pretty much 100% correct, i've yet to see an incorrect fact posted by the ladies on this site)

[childrestraintsafety]

thanks :) I've changed the wording around anyway. can you tell me what you think http://www.childrestraintsafety.happyhost.org/rear.html also, do you know of any links to videos of crash tests when children are forward facing?

[CRV]

I don't think there is a lot of information out there about why rear-facing is better. My manual just says wait until 1 year and 20 lbs. My car-seat label says that and my parenting books don't mention car-seats at all. I think there really needs to be a massive campaign in Drs. offices, magazines, television, schools, parenting groups etc. explaining why rear-facing is better.

[childrestraintsafety]

i totally agree

[Jeanum]

Same here, the safety of rear facing is not emphasized enough and internal decapitation is indeed an attention grabbing phrase. Just wanted to add a very compelling link that was posted on the BB carseat board recently to reinforce the importance of rear facing even beyond a year of age to protect the spine, with photos showing the differences in vertebral development in a 1 year old vs. a 6 year old:

http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=13&topic_id=44503&mesg_id=44503&page=2

[skaterbabscpst]

Part of teh problem is although we know why RF is so much better, the organizations that people look to for information don't make it widely available AND they keep pushing the outdated 12/20, forgetting that if they pushed 18/30 that 12/20 would automatically be covered.

[papooses]

Yes, I was very disappointed last weekend when a news clip in NYC with a Safe Kids rep (of all people) said only 12 + 20, not until the maximum limits of the convertible :( I'm hoping that perhaps the news station omitted the last part instead of the Safe Kids rep forgetting to push for safest practice....

Internal decapitation usually does the trick, as does reminding them that the slots they're using might not be reinforced for FF & as such the child might be ejected (ejected passengers are 4 times as likely to die) :eek:

[BABYGIRLLYNDSEY]

Internal decapitation!!!:eek: The phrase makes me shutter and sick to my stomach. My daughter will be one year old next week and is 21 pounds and riding in a Britax Marathon. We won't be turning her around until she exceeds the weight limits of the seat rear facing. Although, I do see the temptation turning the seat forward facing. I could see her better, I could slide my front seat back finally. However, the advantages of turning her forward facing (for my convenience only) are not worth risking her life. Rear facing longer needs to be explained to parents. Even the hospitals only tell you 20 pounds and one year. I've had four children and that is what they told me with every one of them!!!! Our doctor office even tells me that when I take her for shots!!!:eek: :eek:

[melaniev]

YES - for a while, I actually thought that for some reason it was SAFER to have them forward-facing at 12 months! The phrase that stuck in my head though, was "every passenger would be safer rear-facing".

[childrestraintsafety]

Part of teh problem is although we know why RF is so much better, the organizations that people look to for information don't make it widely available AND they keep pushing the outdated 12/20, forgetting that if they pushed 18/30 that 12/20 would automatically be covered.

Normally I would just the 18/30 instead of 12/20 but our seats here only rear face till 26lb.

[papooses]

Even the hospitals only tell you 20 pounds and one year. I've had four children and that is what they told me with every one of them!!!! Our doctor office even tells me that when I take her for shots!!!:eek: :eek:
Tell me about it -- I'd struck up nice conversation with a family at the theater a few weeks ago ... then as we were leaving I saw them put their 13 month old 25# FF -- she's a L&D nurse :(

[bucket2]

I've countered the "scrunched feet/leg" argument with:

Rear facing is safer. It provides more protection the head, neck and spinal cord. I even "demo" the crash impact with a push on the back of the rear facing seat or a pull on the harness straps. (Most people wonder about the 'play' in a correctly installed rear facing seat anyway.)

Then I ask, "Which would you rather deal with - a broken leg in the unlikely event the "scrunched" leg gets "crunched" or a broken neck/spinal cord injury from your child's head flying forward?"

[Simplysomething]

The other day I had a woman come to my register with a baby about the age of my sons and we started talking about how hot it was. I told her, yeah it was really hot--and since my son was still rear-facing, it felt like he was right there in the sun. She goes, so your 15 month old isn't 20 lbs yet?

I told her, no, he's about 24 lbs, and she started on about the whole leg thing. At that point I didn't have the enegry to correct nor to direct her to this site or any other. Just the leg thing is wide spread notion.

Everytime I mention that my sons seat goes to 35 lbs rear facing (it's the scenera...lol) to my sil, who has a 5 month old... she sorta brushes me off. I'm not sure if she thinks I'm nuts or not.. (But there is a strong possibility that my youngest niece will be turned around before my youngest son...and she's 10 months younger than he is!)

Though, a rear facing seat is a pain in the butt, lately. Frankly, if stuff wasn't so far away, I'd just give up on driving completely. lol

(Edited some spelling, I'm sure there are more mistakes...sorry about that)

[wendytthomas]

The leg thing came up in class last week as well. I interjected how Piper sits in her seats (the instructors frowned, but of course as she's under the weight limit I'm not doing anything "wrong") and then printed out pictures that night and brought them in and showed how a nearly four year old sits in the car. In one picture she had her legs cross, in another they were straight up the seat back.

"Bent legs don't break!"

"Broken leg, cast it. Broken neck, casket."

Sigh. As much as I loved my class their constant 12/20 and rare "maximum limits" and several "when they're talking they HAVE to be turned" annoyed the piss out of me.

Wendy

[papooses]

"Broken leg, cast it. Broken neck, casket."
Love that one!

Kids have to be turned when they can talk :confused: This must be the person who started the rumor that babies with teeth can't nurse :p (Meanwhile my SS was born with 2 teeth & was still obviously born to breastfeed) :D

[kathy]

Please find the energy to keep telling people. I had no idea about RF until recently. No one has told me. I thought my child was safe. Thanks Judy at Baby Depot too for taking an hour to look at the nauti with me and to respond that bent legs are better than a broken neck. Love the quote above about bent legs cast it, broken neck casket! There needs to be a huge billboard somewhere. I am a nurse and will be sharing this with all my other nurse friends. Now we just need someone like Oprah to get it to the world LOL.

[MOM25BOYS]

I agree with the pp! Please keep telling people about the benefits of RF longer. Before finding this site I also assumed at the 12mth/20lb size was time to turn forward.:( Most doctors seem to want to push the bottle and pacifier gone by 12 mths, but don't care to inform parents of RF their children as long as they can to keep them safe!:( As a parent I would be much more interested hearing my doc tell me the benefits of keeping my child RF than to hear how they could develop dental problems from having a bottle or pacifier too long. That's what dentists are good for, right? I have a 3 mth old that I recently started caring for and his mother asked when she could turn him FF since he was getting to heavy for the carrier and not happy riding. She was actuallly was wanting to turn him around at 4mths!! I explained to her the benefits of RF longer and what could happen to him if she was to get in a wreck with him being placed FF now. She had nooo idea that it could kill her child being a first time mom. I would love to see hospitals or other places that offer programs for first time parents to include a lesson on keeping a child RF as long as possible. I believe this would be beneficial to them and the safety of their new child!!:) As for how to answer someone that has already convinced themselves that it is safe to turn them around that young I am not sure what to say. Most people who have that kinda of mind set will likely be the same one to tell you that when they were young they rode around with no carseat in the floor board of their parents car and were never hurt!:thumbsdown:

[Simplysomething]

Holy cow, this is an old thread!
CRS, is that you?

[crunchierthanthou]

Holy cow, this is an old thread!
CRS, is that you?

lol! I saw the OP before I opened it and thought, "who's posing as CRS?".

[libranbutterfly]

i talk about car Seats and safety every chance I get. One time, a friend picked me and Lexi up at the store, and she had her Scenera FF for her then 6 month old(he was not with her, I used the seat for Lexi). Before we left the parking lot, I changed the harness height and turned it around, because Lexi was much to young to FF. That noght, if was FF again (I watched her children at the time). I also made her provide me car seats that *I* felt comfortable using, that kept her children safe. Even though the 6 month old was FF in her car, and the 2 yr old was in a backless with the shoulder belt behind him, in my car they were both RF. I also hand out the papers from safetybeltsafe, encourage them to get seats checked, and frequently offered them better seats for their children. Every time I rode with them, I turned the babies seat around, installed my seat for the 2 yr old instead of booster, checked harness height and tightenned straps.

[My Sweet Blessings]

Most people who have that kinda of mind set will likely be the same one to tell you that when they were young they rode around with no carseat in the floor board of their parents car and were never hurt!:thumbsdown:

one of my MILs fave phrases "we did it when we were kids and turned out fine"

[CRS]

Holy cow, this is an old thread!
CRS, is that you?

It surely is. LMAO This thread is two years old! hahahaha

[minismom]

one of my MILs fave phrases "we did it when we were kids and turned out fine"

That whole thing about how there were no car seats and we turned out fine thing is just bogus. I hate when people say that! The argument would only mean something if they were actually in a crash and were fine. Being lucky does not equal being safe!

To mom I always say: if you had crashed I would have DIED! If I crash my daughter will be fine!

[Simplysomething]

It surely is. LMAO This thread is two years old! hahahaha

You know what is funny, to me at least? Is that I completely missed that I had responded to this thread when it was originally posted. In July. 2006.

And he'll be all of three next month. But he's no longer rear-facing.

It's also amusing that this thread apparently sat in the car-seat forum, undisturbed for a year and a half, and someone resurrected it...and now it's...been moved. lol

[CRS]

You know what is funny, to me at least? Is that I completely missed that I had responded to this thread when it was originally posted. In July. 2006.

And he'll be all of three next month. But he's no longer rear-facing.

It's also amusing that this thread apparently sat in the car-seat forum, undisturbed for a year and a half, and someone resurrected it...and now it's...been moved. lol

Absolutely hilarious teheheheehe

[Judi]

Thanks Kathy!

[Ice Princess]

I just encounterd a mother who was told that a childs hips and spine could be injured by erf. Of all epople who told her this it was a cop so his word was taken over mine when I told her that there have been no documented cases of injury from erf. Her pediatrician also told her that it was okay to turn her 11mos/22# old around becuase he is the size of a 1yr old. :(

[jwren]

My sister was told this too with her kids so they were ff at age 1, and 23lbs, just as mine were because I was told the same, our kids did rear face from 6m on in MA's (graduated from infant seats) so I don't recall what the limit was to turn them, maybe that was the issue too. Had I knew what I know know my almost 3yr old who just turned 35lbs would just be turning around.. obviously it's too late for me but thankfully they are safe and nothing happened...:)


I just encounterd a mother who was told that a childs hips and spine could be injured by erf. Of all epople who told her this it was a cop so his word was taken over mine when I told her that there have been no documented cases of injury from erf. Her pediatrician also told her that it was okay to turn her 11mos/22# old around becuase he is the size of a 1yr old. :(

[CTPDMom]

How many of you are in states without law pertaining to the minimum rear-facing limit? In CT the law states that you must rear-face until you are both 20lbs AND 1 year. (Not that that's safest practice, of course, but it does help to reduce the 5, 6, and 7 mos old ff. I assume most peds in my state know the law although they may not recommend ERF.) I'm just wondering if when you see the younger babies ff if it's because the state lacks a tougher law...and has anyone considered pushing to change your law??

[elle7715]

How many of you are in states without law pertaining to the minimum rear-facing limit?

I'm in Michigan and our laws suck, honestly. They have to be in *something* until their 4th birthday but even that isn't enforced and I see 2 years olds in nothing all the time. There was a legislation about a 8 years/80 lbs law but it was shot down. Nothing about 1 year requirement for forward facing though.

I already posted this on another thread but the head of the safety program at DHC Children's Hospital told our nursing class about a 3 month old who was forward facing in a relatively minor crash (I think not more than 25mph) and was completely paralyzed.

[Judi]

1 yr and 20 lbs here

[papooses]

one of my MILs fave phrases "we did it when we were kids and turned out fine"

This always makes me think of survival of the fittest -- those who protect their young are more likely to survive.... Sometimes miracles happen, but the only miracle I'm depending on has already happened: my child was born (keeping her alive is my responsibility).

[SarahP]

I don't know about Dr's where you guys are. Our pediatrician, however, has been VERY good and telling us about such things. When my son was born it was rear facing til 12 months or 20 pounds, DD1, it was 12 AND 20, when DD2 came along summer '05 it was "as long as your car seat will go" -- I looked at her and said -- "time to turn child #2 back around". She just smiled. I'm just thinking perhaps the Dr's could be encouraged to be sure and tell patients that, Peds as well as the OBGYN's and Midwives, etc as we all seem to be more open to safety talks when pregnant :)
Please find the energy to keep telling people. I had no idea about RF until recently. No one has told me. I thought my child was safe. Thanks Judy at Baby Depot too for taking an hour to look at the nauti with me and to respond that bent legs are better than a broken neck. Love the quote above about bent legs cast it, broken neck casket! There needs to be a huge billboard somewhere. I am a nurse and will be sharing this with all my other nurse friends. Now we just need someone like Oprah to get it to the world LOL.

[disbugsmomma]

I will resurrect this thread yet again :p Michigan has adopted a new carseat law, but it still does not cover when to FF. :thumbsdown: This is the new Michigan law.

* Children from birth through age 8 be properly restrained in a child safety seat or booster seat in the vehicle.

* Children who are eight years old but less than sixteen years old must use a safety belt no matter where they are riding in the vehicle.

The problem is most people do not know what "properly restrained" means. Even the local pediatricians are not at all car seat savvy, so parents are being given seriously outdated information. :eek:

[LISmama810]

It's Return of the Living Thread! :p

[Adventuredad]

Part of teh problem is although we know why RF is so much better, the organizations that people look to for information don't make it widely available AND they keep pushing the outdated 12/20, forgetting that if they pushed 18/30 that 12/20 would automatically be covered.

Good point. Information is out there but in many countries it's not widely available and also confusing to the "normal parent". The information is spread out in many different places and I also think RF gets WAY to little publicity from the organizations that have millions of parents looking at their advice. Many organizations talk about RF but IMHO not in a convincing way.

What to say to parents? I have a different approach for every parents, just depends on the situation. Sometimes I'm angry (with a friend etc.) but I often try to talk calmly to parents. I've yet to see anyone ff here in Sweden before age two and even that is extremely unusual. But I do see parents sticking there way too young kids in boosters or not using a booster at all for a 5 year old. Some also ff at 2 years, very unusual but annoying. This might not be as serious as a little baby ff but it still matters. I find the reactions from parents very educational. Most really don't know they are making huge mistakes and actually believe their kids are very safe.

Something kind of interesting is that car seat laws over here are very lax IMHO. There are no laws about minimum rear facing age or weight, and the law simply says kids shorter than 135 cm. should remain protected in the car. Kids are allowed to temprarily ride without a car seat, like in a taxi etc. To me the law is lax but it's working great so I guess no need to change it.:twocents:

[Simplysomething]

I will resurrect this thread yet again :p Michigan has adopted a new carseat law, but it still does not cover when to FF. :thumbsdown: This is the new Michigan law.
* Children from birth through age 8 be properly restrained in a child safety seat or booster seat in the vehicle.


Well, they say "properly restrained", that covers when you can't forward face. That is, a foward facing 6 month old is NOT properly restrained.

In my..oh so not educated on the nuances of Michigan (or even VA) law opinion.

It's Return of the Living Thread! :p

Are there Zombies?
car-seat zombies don't eat your brains, they install your car-seats...

[Judi]

Are there Zombies?
car-seat zombies don't eat your brains, they install your car-seats...

:ROTFLMAO:

[thepeach80]

I didn't look at the date and got totally confused when I saw DreamingofSpeed, lol! That made me look at the date and I just laughed. :)

Our state just says 'properly restrained according to manufacturer' or something like that, so it would be illegal to have a child ffing under the mnaufacturer set of limits or age/weight.

[Kat_Momof3]

illegal or not, is it that weird to expect people to actually do what the manual says? seriously, when they say babies have to rearface to 1yr and 20lbs, how do they not take that as a rule?

[thepeach80]

illegal or not, is it that weird to expect people to actually do what the manual says? seriously, when they say babies have to rearface to 1yr and 20lbs, how do they not take that as a rule?

B/c most people don't follow all rules to the 't', kwim? Speed limit says 40, I tend to do 45. Work starts at 9, a lot of places are o.k. if you come at 9:05. I turned AJ at 11mos and 23# b/c that's really close to 12/20, even over 20# so that must make him stronger than a 20# baby. :thumbsdown: Until people realize why 12/20 is the MINIMUM you'll always have people turning early and until DRs learn to make 12/20 the reccomendation as MINIMUM we'll still have this problem as well. I still remember the 22# 7 mos old I had come into a check that was ffing b/c the DR said it was o.k. since he was over 20#. :mad:

[Adventuredad]

illegal or not, is it that weird to expect people to actually do what the manual says? seriously, when they say babies have to rearface to 1yr and 20lbs, how do they not take that as a rule?

There are an enormous number of stupid parents who don't seem to care about their kids. Despite the rules, there is a large number of kids which are completely unrestrained at all kinds of ages. Never underestimate the stupidity of people (and parents):twocents:

[minismom]

There are no laws about minimum rear facing age or weight, and the law simply says kids shorter than 135 cm. should remain protected in the car. Kids are allowed to temprarily ride without a car seat, like in a taxi etc. To me the law is lax but it's working great so I guess no need to change it.:twocents:

Really? I thought the law in Sweden was that kids had to RF til age 4.

[Adventuredad]

Really? I thought the law in Sweden was that kids had to RF til age 4.

Nope. I think this is interesting considering car seat safety is so great here. The law basically says:

- Everyone must use a seatbelt, both in front and rear.

- Children shorter than 135 cm. (53 inches) must use some extra protection such as infant seat, car seat, booster, or belt positioning booster.

That's it. There is no minimum age for rf etc. Most kids do sit rf until 4 years though. Conclusions, thoughts, opinions? Fines are also relatively low, so are punishment such as prison etc. Looking at the laws and rules, shouldn't Sweden be horrible at car seat safety?

[jen_nah]

forward face at such a ridiculously young age. I.e. 5/6/7 months etc. It breaks my heart and distresses me I don't know what to say to these people to make them believe it's NOT ok.

Lucky for me I have the law on my side. Plus at my fitting station we have a police officer that works with us and they are usually always in uniform. That makes a good detorant on not breaking the law and a $200 fine.

[zeo2ski]

I once had a neighbor who worked for Head Start. She turned her 4 month old FFing! I called CPS, and they couldn't do a dang thing about it unless there was already a case opened on them. CPS supervisor said to call the cops when I see it happen, which I did, and I'll never know what happened--but they did not turn that baby back around if they did get caught. This was a year ago and I'm still queasy about it. Thank goodness they moved.

Looking back, if I had known they would be moving I might have said something to her. However, I had never talked to her, and I have seen her "anger management" or lack there-of, and I could not put my own child in danger knowing she was always next door. But still...I should have slipped a note in the mail box.

[popsicle]

Nope. I think this is interesting considering car seat safety is so great here. The law basically says:

- Everyone must use a seatbelt, both in front and rear.

- Children shorter than 135 cm. (53 inches) must use some extra protection such as infant seat, car seat, booster, or belt positioning booster.

That's it. There is no minimum age for rf etc. Most kids do sit rf until 4 years though. Conclusions, thoughts, opinions? Fines are also relatively low, so are punishment such as prison etc. Looking at the laws and rules, shouldn't Sweden be horrible at car seat safety?


Huh, what do you know, you mean education is more effective than legislation? What a concept. :whistle: