seat protector under car seat safe?

[sllgatsby]

I have a new car with cloth upholstery and would like to put a waterproof seat protector on my rear bench seat so that I can avoid all the stains I got in my old car from leaking sippy cups left lying down, crushed peanut butter sandwiches, muddy shoes on the seat when climbing in, etc.

There aren't many seat covers that are waterproof that go on the back as well as the seat to keep stuff from going down the crack in the seat, but I did find one that's really designed for pets (see link below).

I'm wondering if it would be safe under a car seat. I plan to use the rubbery netting like you use under area rugs to keep them from sliding. I was going to put a sheet of it underneath the seat protector, as well as on top of it, under the car seat.

Is that going to work? If not, does anyone have a suggestion for full seat protection? I've looked at a couple stretchy seat covers, but they apparently impair the side airbags.

Here's a link to the seat protector I'm talking about: http://tinyurl.com/3yo6zv

[wendytthomas]

Welcome! We're glad you've asked.

They're not safe. They can interfere with an installation, making it seem like you have your seat in well, but in reality you may have a fatal amount of compressible space.

You can spread out a thin towel both down the back of the seat and across the bottom. If you want to use a shelf liner and extra towels, or waterproof backing NEXT to the seat on either side that'd be fine. Install it over a thin towel and then when it's in well you can slide things under the towel next to the seat. But none of that should go under the seat, or interfere with your installation.

Wendy

[joolsplus3]

Oh, yeah, I wouldn't use that one you linked to, it's way too thick to be safe under a carseat. I second the thin towel suggestion. :)

[sllgatsby]

Thanks for the quick replies. I'm glad I didn't buy it!

I was wondering about this though (http://www.babygearbuyer.com/products/babies_r_us_especially_for_baby_carseat_undermat.h tml#description). I saw it at a store and took it out of the pkg to look at it.
It's quite thin (about the thickness of a credit card) and has a rubbery vinyl backing. What do you think? I would be putting one car seat in the middle of it if I bought it.

When I told my husband we couldn't put anything under the seat, he wasn't too happy and wanted me to check on this one. :rolleyes:

Thanks again.

[joolsplus3]

Does that one have grippy stuff on the bottom? I owned an earlier version that was slippery slippery nylon, it was awful, never stayed in place... If it's a little grippier, it's fine, but a discount store bathtowel that matches your upholstery cover is still really fine :twocents::)

[wendytthomas]

If it has nothing to compress it's not a danger provided it doesn't get in the way of the seatbelt (it says LATCH compatible, but most cars don't allow LATCH in the middle, and this may cover the buckles or make a seatbelt installation more difficult).

I'd just as soon go and buy a towel, though. It has other uses later in life, and having a towel is always handy (have you read A Hitchhiker's Guide To the Galaxy? LOL).

Wendy

[Airforcemomma]

After reading these posts I'm now wondering if the undermats I have under my kids car seats are OK to use or not. I have both car seats sitting on the Sunshine Kids ultra mat. Has a flap that goes up the back of the vehicle seat a bit and mesh storage pockets that hang over the front of the vehicle seat with black rubber type stuff on the underside of the mat. It seems to be about a 1/4 " thick and really does help keep the vehicle seats from getting ruined by the car seat compression and little spills. Anyone know if these are OK to use?

[skaterbabscpst]

No, they're not. That's much too thick.

Spills may be a danger to your upholstery, but the compression from your child's safety seat is not.

You may only use a thin towel.

[ThreeBeans]

After reading these posts I'm now wondering if the undermats I have under my kids car seats are OK to use or not. I have both car seats sitting on the Sunshine Kids ultra mat. Has a flap that goes up the back of the vehicle seat a bit and mesh storage pockets that hang over the front of the vehicle seat with black rubber type stuff on the underside of the mat. It seems to be about a 1/4 " thick and really does help keep the vehicle seats from getting ruined by the car seat compression and little spills. Anyone know if these are OK to use?

Those are very dangerous. My advice would be to remove them immediately. DO NOT continue to drive your children around in seats installed over those.

[jdchic3]

if she's worried about stains couldn't she use one layer of shelf liner? I thought that was also an acceptable option? and then put towels around the edges after the seat is installed like wendy suggested?

[Valentine]

What about this; is it okay? We have it under the Snugride base now and I was wondering if we could keep it for the Marathon. We have cloth seats but we'll want to be able to trade the car in for a new one eventually, and I'm worried that the deep indentations from the seat will hurt the value.

http://tinyurl.com/26zruw

[southpawboston]

unless your child is spilling entire cups full of liquid, a thin towel will prevent the car's upholstery from staining. we only use a thin towel and it quickly soaks up any random spills from sippy cups. shelf liner (the kind with holes in it) won't prevent staining.

[ThreeBeans]

What about this; is it okay? We have it under the Snugride base now and I was wondering if we could keep it for the Marathon. We have cloth seats but we'll want to be able to trade the car in for a new one eventually, and I'm worried that the deep indentations from the seat will hurt the value.

http://tinyurl.com/26zruw

No, no, no, that is EXTREMELY unsafe. The indentations eventually do level out.

Putting that under your seat pretty much guarantees you do not have a safe installation. You shouldn't drive with your child in the car until it's removed :)

[Valentine]

Oh my. We'll remove it when my husband gets home from work today then.

[jdchic3]

unless your child is spilling entire cups full of liquid, a thin towel will prevent the car's upholstery from staining. we only use a thin towel and it quickly soaks up any random spills from sippy cups. shelf liner (the kind with holes in it) won't prevent staining.

Lol. I see now why a towel would be better. I've always imagined contact paper, like you stick it in your kitchen cabinets. I didn't realize it was the kind you're talking about.

[Airforcemomma]

I will remove mine right away. I just got my van from the dealership today and installed the seats at the dealership with the Mats underneath both seats. Once the blizzard like total white out conditions end outside I will remove them and put a towel under the seats.

I had no idea these mats were so unsafe. Why are they even on store shelves if they pose a safety concern for children? I may be wrong but I actually thought the ones I bought said on the box they were crash tested.

I know the car seats really do compress the vehicle seats, and that is the main reason I wanted to use the mats. However, I expect 4 yrs from now when I'm ready to trade this van for a new one it will make no difference to me anyway. The car seats will be in the van clear into the next the new vehicle.

Thanks for letting me know, my heart skipped a beat when I read the messages to remove them immediately and not drive with the kids in the seats till they are removed.

[wendytthomas]

Sure, they're crash tested. I can throw it against the wall and claim it's crash tested. However, FMVSS 213 does not cover aftermarket products. There is no standard for aftermarket products. They cannot be tested with certainty with every seat out there. Therefore they are not good.

They are sold for the same reason anything is sold. People will buy them. Don't kid yourself that Graco, Evenflo, and Britax are in this because of the goodness of their hearts. They're in this for the goodness of their bottom line. Saving kids is a byproduct, and the "safer" your seat and the more features you offer the more you can charge. Every single parent needs a carseat. It's good business.

How's that for cynical?

Wendy

[Defrost]

I had no idea these mats were so unsafe. Why are they even on store shelves if they pose a safety concern for children? I may be wrong but I actually thought the ones I bought said on the box they were crash tested.

They can sell them because there is no law saying they can't. They can say they have been "crash-tested" to meet "FMVSS standards" because technically it's true - FMVSS doesn't say anything at all about after-market products. It's like saying "By law, I am legally allowed to hang hubcaps from every tree in my front yard!" As others have stated, they can throw their mats against the wall and say "I tested it to FMVSS standards!"

I know the car seats really do compress the vehicle seats, and that is the main reason I wanted to use the mats. However, I expect 4 yrs from now when I'm ready to trade this van for a new one it will make no difference to me anyway. The car seats will be in the van clear into the next the new vehicle.


If you haven't removed them yet, you can try something easy to illustrate the problem. Before you remove the carseats, use a pencil to mark where the latchplate sits on the seat belt. Then install the carseats without the mats, and look at the seat belt to see the difference. You'll be able to clearly see how much tighter your carseats are without the mats, and how much slack you would have had in a crash.

[Airforcemomma]

They can sell them because there is no law saying they can't. They can say they have been "crash-tested" to meet "FMVSS standards" because technically it's true - FMVSS doesn't say anything at all about after-market products. It's like saying "By law, I am legally allowed to hang hubcaps from every tree in my front yard!" As others have stated, they can throw their mats against the wall and say "I tested it to FMVSS standards!"



If you haven't removed them yet, you can try something easy to illustrate the problem. Before you remove the carseats, use a pencil to mark where the latchplate sits on the seat belt. Then install the carseats without the mats, and look at the seat belt to see the difference. You'll be able to clearly see how much tighter your carseats are without the mats, and how much slack you would have had in a crash.
That's got my interest peeked. I will do that this afternoon. That's a really neat idea to demonstrate the difference.


Laura 07 Pontiac Montana
Christopher 6 yo FF Britax Marathon
Jessica 3 yo FF Britax Marathon , EFTA

[Airforcemomma]

Sure, they're crash tested. I can throw it against the wall and claim it's crash tested. However, FMVSS 213 does not cover aftermarket products. There is no standard for aftermarket products. They cannot be tested with certainty with every seat out there. Therefore they are not good.

They are sold for the same reason anything is sold. People will buy them. Don't kid yourself that Graco, Evenflo, and Britax are in this because of the goodness of their hearts. They're in this for the goodness of their bottom line. Saving kids is a byproduct, and the "safer" your seat and the more features you offer the more you can charge. Every single parent needs a carseat. It's good business.

How's that for cynical?

Wendy
You're right. All these companies are out to make a buck. And people like me are an easy target.

So, I guess the same would go for any of those add on storage pockets/pouches you can clip to the car seats. Yes, I'm guilty of those too. Each of the kids have a Sunshine Kids clip on pocket/pouch thing for their toys and what not.

[Airforcemomma]

They can sell them because there is no law saying they can't. They can say they have been "crash-tested" to meet "FMVSS standards" because technically it's true - FMVSS doesn't say anything at all about after-market products. It's like saying "By law, I am legally allowed to hang hubcaps from every tree in my front yard!" As others have stated, they can throw their mats against the wall and say "I tested it to FMVSS standards!"



If you haven't removed them yet, you can try something easy to illustrate the problem. Before you remove the carseats, use a pencil to mark where the latchplate sits on the seat belt. Then install the carseats without the mats, and look at the seat belt to see the difference. You'll be able to clearly see how much tighter your carseats are without the mats, and how much slack you would have had in a crash.
WOW WOW WOW!!!! Unbelievable. I did your pencil test, and there it was almost a full 3 fingers width of slack. I was able to compress the car seat with my knee so much better then with the mat and as a result it took what looks to be over an inch and a half of slack. Now I can honestly say my son's car seat is extremely tight and does not move at all. Much much better. Now I will do Jessie's seat and throw the mats in the garbage. Will have to get my hubby to do the same with the seats in his car as well. I'll show him your pencil test, will amaze him too. Thanks so much

[ThreeBeans]

For the person who asked, "Why are they allowed to be sold if they aren't safe?"

Keep in mind, cigarettes and semi-automatic weapons are for sale, aren't they? ;)

[Defrost]

WOW WOW WOW!!!! Unbelievable. I did your pencil test, and there it was almost a full 3 fingers width of slack.

Freaky, huh? It's not "my" test, though - I read it somewhere around here. :)

[Airforcemomma]

Freaky, huh? It's not "my" test, though - I read it somewhere around here. :)
It really surprised me. I had no idea those mats were that bad. I'd passed the test on to my friends that use the mats to get them to do it to. Give them reason enough to throw their mats out too.

[wendytthomas]

I like that test. I removed two prince lionheart mats today. That would have been a good way to show the parents (especially on the second install which was TRICKY).

Wendy

[casatterwhite]

I just got my GN today and page 60 of the manual says "Continuous use of child restraint may cause damage to vehicle seat. Use a child restraint mat, towel or thin blanket to protect upholstery."
I had been looking for a mat to buy, but it sounds like I should just use an old towel? Should I put it just on the seat bottom, or between the GN and the seat back as well?
I have a 99 Toyota Sienna with leather seats - that are already showing deep dents from the old seats...
Thanks!

[azgirl71]

I just got my GN today and page 60 of the manual says "Continuous use of child restraint may cause damage to vehicle seat. Use a child restraint mat, towel or thin blanket to protect upholstery."
I had been looking for a mat to buy, but it sounds like I should just use an old towel? Should I put it just on the seat bottom, or between the GN and the seat back as well?
I have a 99 Toyota Sienna with leather seats - that are already showing deep dents from the old seats...
Thanks!

IME I have never had a car seat damage a leather or cloth vehicle seat. If you absolutely *must* put something under or behind the carseat then make it a very thin towel. Techs generally do not recommend using anything to protect the seat. Nothing will protect your vehicle seat from dents. They will usually pop back up withing a couple of weeks.

[skaterbabscpst]

:yeahthat:

[Valentine]

I saw this thread get bumped and I just wanted to update that the day I posted saying we'd remove our pad when my husband came home from work, I met him in the driveway and we did it right then! lol. Reinstalled the Snugride base and that baby is tight! (But now we're putting in the new MAs tomorrow so I might be on with questions!)

[skaterbabscpst]

Yay! Glad to hear it. :)

[azgirl71]

Good for you, Botzi!! :thumbsup:

[Unregistered]

I was just about to buy one of these car mats when I saw this thread. Does anyone know of any car mats that ~are~ safe? I don't really like the look of a towel on my nice leather seats in my nice new van, so if there is a product that at least looks like it belongs there, it would be much nicer for me. (Yes, I know, safety first; but safe + looks good > safe + ugly in my book.)

[emars002]

I don't know if this will help any but we took all our seats out to rearrange and change strap heights - we have a mini van with cloth seats and a truck with leather - both had nothing under them and they were really in there tight - we didn't reinstall for two days - my husband stayed home with the kids and I worked - when we went back 2 days later to both cars - all the indents had almost completely worked their way out (those seats had been in there and not moved for probably 4 months or so) I know this won't help with the staining issue but hopefully will relieve some stress on the indent being permanent.

[Defrost]

I was just about to buy one of these car mats when I saw this thread. Does anyone know of any car mats that ~are~ safe? I don't really like the look of a towel on my nice leather seats in my nice new van, so if there is a product that at least looks like it belongs there, it would be much nicer for me. (Yes, I know, safety first; but safe + looks good > safe + ugly in my book.)

I've seen one that wasn't too bad. We discussed it at the seat check ("we" being the techs) and decided to educate the parents about the issues/concerns but not make too big of a deal. It was no thicker than a towel and not slippery, and we couldn't see that it was interfering with the install. The mom said she found it in the "car accessories" section of the store, and said she got it because it was cheaper than the ones sold in the "baby accessories" section.

ETA: I forgot to add that I still don't recommend them, but if parents are absolutely going to use one regardless, I'd prefer to see one like that over the super-thick ones they usually sell for carseats.

[kdgrayson]

...Does anyone know of any car mats that ~are~ safe?...)


Graco website states that they crash test their accessories with their seats, so a Graco mat should be OK with their seats. I've ordered one for my Safeseat (couldn't find in a store) to see how it fits.

[wendytthomas]

Graco website states that they crash test their accessories with their seats, so a Graco mat should be OK with their seats. I've ordered one for my Safeseat (couldn't find in a store) to see how it fits.

It's possible they're ok, but there are no aftermarket standards. So anyone can say they've crash tested accessories, it just doesn't mean anything.

I'd be more likely to ok a Graco something with a Graco seat, but I'd still be exceedingly wary.

Wendy

[kdgrayson]

Got the Graco undermat today. It is quite thin and flexible, 100% nylon, like the material for a lightweight backpack. The top is a light ballistic weave with a fine tight material fused to the bottom (to make it waterproof I would presume). It is not "tacky" at all and seems virtually noncompressible (less so than any cotton towel would be). It looks like it will prevent abrasion damage and fluid from getting on the seat. I haven't test fitted it yet but will update when I have. I also emailed Graco to ask what type of testing they have done with this seat and will relay what they have to say.

[jen_nah]

I just want to throw out there that everyone is recommending a thin towel but if you live in a proper use state and your owners manual states no aftermarket product and a towel is an aftermarket product you are breaking the law.

There are manufactures (ex: Britax, Chicco) that do not allow even a thin towel and I am kinda shocked that no one has asked the OP what seats she has.

[my2kidsSafe]

I just want to throw out there that everyone is recommending a thin towel but if you live in a proper use state and your owners manual states no aftermarket product and a towel is an aftermarket product you are breaking the law.

There are manufactures (ex: Britax, Chicco) that do not allow even a thin towel and I am kinda shocked that no one has asked the OP what seats she has.

the OP already mentioned she has a GN. If you read the OP she mentions the manual actually states to use the towel.

[joolsplus3]

Graco crash tests their mats with their products. The standards are the same as a carseat alone (they measure how far the head and knees fly forward, and the forces on the chest).

[azgirl71]

I think it is greta you found a seat mat to use. However, you state it seems to ne non compessible even more so than a cotton towel. I am not sure if you used the wrong word or not, but if it does not compress in the same manner as a thin towel I would not feel comfortable using it. I would feel more comfotrable if when I add weight it does compress more. If it compresses you can get the seat in tighter. If it does not then you could end up with intalls that seem to be appropriate.

As Jenny said, not all maufacturer's even allow the use of thin towels under the car seat for installs.

I am sure Graco will probably come back an day it is fine to use with thier products. Unless they show mw a video with a GN installed on this mat in a crash test I will not believe it was tested. Remember since there are no testing standards for aftermarket products they could throw it against a wall and say it passes ;)

[joolsplus3]

Really, I asked Carol Helminski, the Graco rep for many years, about the crash testing standards of their accessories...they install them and test them the same as any car seat. (even the ones with the accessory pockets loaded with stuff...). I think it's unfair to use the 'throw them against the wall' analogy we use with other hunks of junk that claim to be crash tested :o (I know it's been almost 5 years since these products first hit the market, but I don't think Graco has to keep defending itself over and over once it's been stated once that they are properly tested to not ruin the performance of their seats).

:twocents::)

[jen_nah]

the OP already mentioned she has a GN. If you read the OP she mentions the manual actually states to use the towel.

Excuse me but no where in the OP posts does she mention what seats she has or even the mention of a GN. Now another poster brought up Graco but not the OP.

[jen_nah]

Really, I asked Carol Helminski, the Graco rep for many years, about the crash testing standards of their accessories...they install them and test them the same as any car seat. (even the ones with the accessory pockets loaded with stuff...). I think it's unfair to use the 'throw them against the wall' analogy we use with other hunks of junk that claim to be crash tested :o (I know it's been almost 5 years since these products first hit the market, but I don't think Graco has to keep defending itself over and over once it's been stated once that they are properly tested to not ruin the performance of their seats).

:twocents::)

I understand where Lisa is coming from just because we are taught and pound into parents heads these products are not crash tested by NHTSA standards. Even though Graco tests these products but it's to Graco standards and not NHTSA standards. I know I still won't recommend these products just because of the misuse with seats and then add these aftermarket products and the possiblity of projectiles.

Also once baby has moved out of say their Snugride the parent may then keep using that product with Britax.

[azgirl71]

I understand where Lisa is coming from just because we are taught and pound into parents heads these products are not crash tested by NHTSA standards. Even though Graco tests these products but it's to Graco standards and not NHTSA standards. I know I still won't recommend these products just because of the misuse with seats and then add these aftermarket products and the possiblity of projectiles.

Also once baby has moved out of say their Snugride the parent may then keep using that product with Britax.

Thanks, Jenny. That is exactly where I am coming from. If Graco does do testing with thier aftermarket products and thier car seats that is great. I will not go against what I teach. NHSTA says no and I stand by that until they change the cirriculum.

[kdgrayson]

...I am not sure if you used the wrong word or not, but if it does not compress in the same manner as a thin towel I would not feel comfortable using it. I would feel more comfotrable if when I add weight it does compress more. If it compresses you can get the seat in tighter. If it does not then you could end up with intalls that seem to be appropriate...

Perhaps it would be best described as very compliant and flexible but tough and cut resistant. I would liken the "stiffnes" to that of well washed denim but thinner like khaki cloth in a pair of slacks. It certainly won't prevent the "dent" type damage that some of the very thick "plasticky" mats claim to.

In regards to testing, if the mat was used with a car-seat on a FMVSS-213 compliant sled and passes all the tests I can't see what else could be required from a safety stand point. The test sled itself has vinyl upholstry on it per the NHTSA-213-2003 test requirement, so it already doesn't approximate most vehicle seat upholstry in service.

I will install my safeseat base with and without the mat using the seatbelt and the lock-off. A small piece of tape on the belt at the lock-off should allow for a good judge of how much (if any) difference there is with and without the mat and will report back in a few days. My wife and I are actually travelling out of the area today for a few days so I won't get to it until this weekend. I'll also relay Graco's response to my email after I get it.

[Judi]

What about a flat waterproof pad, like you use in a crib, etc. Just thinking....

[Jwebbal]

I have grip liner under at least one of my car seats, to keep it from moving from side to side (the install is good, the seat is just slippery). The tech recommended it, is it okay? I have a Britax regent and like I said, slippery leather seats.

[Judi]

Like a shelf liner?

[wendytthomas]

I have grip liner under at least one of my car seats, to keep it from moving from side to side (the install is good, the seat is just slippery). The tech recommended it, is it okay? I have a Britax regent and like I said, slippery leather seats.

One layer of shelf lining? That's fine. More than one layer is not ok (I pulled 16 out from under a seat once, put there by a fireman). It's something to help on those leather seats. Though be careful if you live somewhere hot. I've heard of them melting to the car's seats. So keep an eye on that.

Wendy

[jen_nah]

Perhaps it would be best described as very compliant and flexible but tough and cut resistant. I would liken the "stiffnes" to that of well washed denim but thinner like khaki cloth in a pair of slacks. It certainly won't prevent the "dent" type damage that some of the very thick "plasticky" mats claim to.

In regards to testing, if the mat was used with a car-seat on a FMVSS-213 compliant sled and passes all the tests I can't see what else could be required from a safety stand point. The test sled itself has vinyl upholstry on it per the NHTSA-213-2003 test requirement, so it already doesn't approximate most vehicle seat upholstry in service.

I will install my safeseat base with and without the mat using the seatbelt and the lock-off. A small piece of tape on the belt at the lock-off should allow for a good judge of how much (if any) difference there is with and without the mat and will report back in a few days. My wife and I are actually travelling out of the area today for a few days so I won't get to it until this weekend. I'll also relay Graco's response to my email after I get it.

While true it may pass on a NHTSA approved sled but NHTSA does not have any set standards these aftermarket products must meet. I am not saying not to use the Graco approved products just saying that we don't have a set standards to go by for any aftermarket product. If you so choice to use an aftermarket product with your seat that is your parental choice.

My point in my 1st post was those of us that are techs or instructors (like Lisa & myself) are supposed to be following the car seat/vehicle manual but also Safe Kids curriculum that clearly states no aftermarket products. So, Stating to use a thin towel under a car seat that clearly states in the manual "no aftermarket products" is clearly going against the car seat manual and what we have been taught as techs from Safe Kids.

[jen_nah]

One layer of shelf lining? That's fine. More than one layer is not ok (I pulled 16 out from under a seat once, put there by a fireman). It's something to help on those leather seats. Though be careful if you live somewhere hot. I've heard of them melting to the car's seats. So keep an eye on that.

Wendy

I have actually seen a seat were the shelf liner had melted to the leather seat plus the parents had used black liner on tan leather and it also stained the seat.

[azgirl71]

I have grip liner under at least one of my car seats, to keep it from moving from side to side (the install is good, the seat is just slippery). The tech recommended it, is it okay? I have a Britax regent and like I said, slippery leather seats.

Rubberized shelf liner is not ok to use to install a car seat. Here is a quote from the December 2007 CPS Express (http://sk.convio.net/site/MessageViewer?em_id=18701.0)about this.
FACT OR FICTION: Using slip guard with a child safety seat will assist in obtaining a tight installation.

FICTION - Slip guard was discussed in the previous curriculum and is listed on page 426 in the Appendix of the revised curriculum as a tool to have available at a CPS Inspection Station.

The use of slip guard was never intended for use to assist in providing a tight installation. Slip guard only assists with protecting a vehicle seat (leather). If you feel you need an aide to assist in providing a secure installation, there is a problem with the installation.

Using your weight as leverage may provide the force you need to get the tight installation necessary for a child safety seat. Another seating location may also be an option. By informing the parent/caregiver that the slip guard is an aide to assist with tight installation you are giving the parent/caregiver the illusion that their installation is correct when just the opposite is true.

[jen_nah]

Rubberized shelf liner is not ok to use to install a car seat. Here is a quote from the December 2007 CPS Express (http://sk.convio.net/site/MessageViewer?em_id=18701.0)about this.


Very true!

You should be getting an acceptable installation prior to adding the shelf liner. If you leather seat is slippary and your getting to much side to side movement but shelf grip liner all of the sudden fixs it. It's still not a good install even with shelf grip liner. Now if you get an acceptable install prior to adding it then yes you can use 1 layer but be aware of the possiblity of it melting to your leather seats.

[Unregistered]

Sorry, so its to my understanding, that for seats( cloth and leather) to use an old towel and no mats. correct? i got all confused with everything going on. I had a car seat in our truck and we only took it out to clean it and then we had a wreck and it totalled out the truck, my son was thankfully unharmed. But i noticed that the carseat did leave terrible grooves in the seat to the point when it rubbed it so much that it was ripping through. We now have a Jetta with leather seats, so to protect them i should use a towel?

Thanks so much,
a confused momma

[jen_nah]

Sorry, so its to my understanding, that for seats( cloth and leather) to use an old towel and no mats. correct? i got all confused with everything going on. I had a car seat in our truck and we only took it out to clean it and then we had a wreck and it totalled out the truck, my son was thankfully unharmed. But i noticed that the carseat did leave terrible grooves in the seat to the point when it rubbed it so much that it was ripping through. We now have a Jetta with leather seats, so to protect them i should use a towel?

Thanks so much,
a confused momma


It depends on the car seat you have. If the manual doesn't say you can use a towel then no you can't use anything under the seat. Also many states have a "misuse" clause in the child passenger safety laws and using aftermarket products (includes towels) is considered illegal.

A towel, most mats or shelf grip liner is not going to prevent the indents that carseats cause in vehicle seats. That is just the nature of the beast that come with having kids. I have never seen a car seat rip a vehicle seat from pressure of the installation.

[azgirl71]

JEnny is correct. There is nothing that will protect from dents. I have had both cloth and leather seats. It takes 3-5 days for the cloth seats to pop back and about 2 days for leather id the car seat has been installed along time IME. I have had someone say it took 2 weeks for thier cloth to pop back. I have never had either ripp or tear. for leather seats get a good non silicone based conditioner and keep your seats conditioned.

[mom23boys]

I had a Boulevard installed in the captains chair of our van which had leather seats and it took about 4-5 days for the dents to pop out. My seats were not damaged in any way. DS blvd. was installed in the same seat for aprox 2.5 tears and only taken out for one day to wash the cover. It was installed super tight.

DS now has a regent installed driver outboard in MDX on leather seat and I had to remove it because when I got it the fabric was not stitched correctly and Britax sent me a replacement so I had to take it out and switch out the fabric after about 2 weeks of installation. There are some major indentions in the leather but I am hoping that they will pop back just like in my van when he is out of the regent.

Trust me I am very particular about my vehicles but I would not ever sacrifice safety to protect my seat. I wish there were safe alternatives to prevent the denting but there are none that I am aware of.

I do have a question, would it be safe to put a seat protector under a booster? I don't have one under ds2 booster but if it is safe I probably would.

[Patriot201]

I have had some REALLY deep indentations that always pop out eventually.


The only seat that I currently have anything under is the Scenera. I have a flannel receiving blanket under it. There are some VERY, VERY sharp spikes on the bottom of the Scenera (sharp enough that I sliced my hand open on them) that already made a slice into my upholstery. The receiving blanket is actually helping because the spikes cut into the blanket instead of the upholstery. That one layer of fabric seems to be enough. :confused:

I know I shouldn't have the blanket there. I know I need to remove it. I know I am setting a bad example. I promise I will remove the blanket when I take the seat out this weekend. :)

[azgirl71]

I do have a question, would it be safe to put a seat protector under a booster? I don't have one under ds2 booster but if it is safe I probably would.

You shoule not put anything under a booster either. If it slides it is acceptable to put a thin piece of rubberized shelf liner. Only if you must though and only for a booster. Not a carseat.

[kdgrayson]

While true it may pass on a NHTSA approved sled but NHTSA does not have any set standards these aftermarket products must meet. I am not saying not to use the Graco approved products just saying that we don't have a set standards to go by for any aftermarket product. If you so choice to use an aftermarket product with your seat that is your parental choice.

My point in my 1st post was those of us that are techs or instructors (like Lisa & myself) are supposed to be following the car seat/vehicle manual but also Safe Kids curriculum that clearly states no aftermarket products. So, Stating to use a thin towel under a car seat that clearly states in the manual "no aftermarket products" is clearly going against the car seat manual and what we have been taught as techs from Safe Kids.

Not trying to be difficult, but a few thoughts. One is that the term "aftermarket" to me implies an accessory made by another company, versus something made by the same seat manufacturer for a given restraint. A strict definition of the term aftermarket, to include anything bought "after" the initial sale, would preclude using even things like accessory bases, which is of course an absurb thought. Likeweise, Graco sells head supports/harness covers for the Snugride seats that might be different from the type originally supplied with the seat; I don't think anyone would argue that that would not be allowed since the item has been crash tested with the seat. On the other hand, trying to use that particular accessory with another brand seat would clearly fall into the aftermarket waters; it might or might not be OK, without proper testing one can't be certain.

I found and looked over, with a bit of Googling, the latest CFR text for FMVSS 213 (http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2007/octqtr/pdf/49cfr571.213.pdf), as well as the Laboratory Test Procedure (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/DOT/NHTSA/Vehicle%20Safety/Test%20Procedures/Associated%20Files/TP213-9a.pdf) for restraint. The reg (as i read it) doesn't prohibit the use of a mat in the design of a seat (unless I am missing something in a some other CFR unknown to me) and this document is the legal "bottom line" in terms of the criteria for minimum safe seat design and performance as of now. It is a performance standard, within the basic requirements of design (e.g. how the harness system is layed out, how the restraint can attach to the car, etc.), not an absolute specification (look at the great variety of design in restraints that meet the same standard). If a seat (with or without a mat,any other accessory or variation of trim as is the case with many "submodels" of a given seat) can meet the performance standards in the CFR per the test procedure protocol, then that is what I would consider a safe (and legal) restraint system; I don't see what other "set standard" there might need to be for safety.

I realize that there is a degree of nuance here in regards to the specific subject (what exactly makes a given accessory/option safe), but it perhaps only reinforces one basic rule of safe restraint use; if it HASN'T been tested, you (or in this case the child) is the test "dummy" (literally and figuratively). Otherwise, I think we have to trust (within reason), the current regs to lead us in the right direction.

Respectfully submitted as I see it from a practical standpoint (and I hope this makes sense posting at this late hour).

p.s. I still haven't gotten a response myself from Graco but it looks like someone has looked into the testing question with them before.

[southpawboston]

Not trying to be difficult, but a few thoughts. One is that the term "aftermarket" to me implies an accessory made by another company, versus something made by the same seat manufacturer for a given restraint. A strict definition of the term aftermarket, to include anything bought "after" the initial sale, would preclude using even things like accessory bases, which is of course an absurb thought. Likeweise, Graco sells head supports/harness covers for the Snugride seats that might be different from the type originally supplied with the seat; I don't think anyone would argue that that would not be allowed since the item has been crash tested with the seat. On the other hand, trying to use that particular accessory with another brand seat would clearly fall into the aftermarket waters; it might or might not be OK, without proper testing one can't be certain.

I found and looked over, with a bit of Googling, the latest CFR text for FMVSS 213 (http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2007/octqtr/pdf/49cfr571.213.pdf), as well as the Laboratory Test Procedure (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/DOT/NHTSA/Vehicle%20Safety/Test%20Procedures/Associated%20Files/TP213-9a.pdf) for restraint. The reg (as i read it) doesn't prohibit the use of a mat in the design of a seat (unless I am missing something in a some other CFR unknown to me) and this document is the legal "bottom line" in terms of the criteria for minimum safe seat design and performance as of now. It is a performance standard, within the basic requirements of design (e.g. how the harness system is layed out, how the restraint can attach to the car, etc.), not an absolute specification (look at the great variety of design in restraints that meet the same standard). If a seat (with or without a mat,any other accessory or variation of trim as is the case with many "submodels" of a given seat) can meet the performance standards in the CFR per the test procedure protocol, then that is what I would consider a safe (and legal) restraint system; I don't see what other "set standard" there might need to be for safety.

I realize that there is a degree of nuance here in regards to the specific subject (what exactly makes a given accessory/option safe), but it perhaps only reinforces one basic rule of safe restraint use; if it HASN'T been tested, you (or in this case the child) is the test "dummy" (literally and figuratively). Otherwise, I think we have to trust (within reason), the current regs to lead us in the right direction.

Respectfully submitted as I see it from a practical standpoint (and I hope this makes sense posting at this late hour).

p.s. I still haven't gotten a response myself from Graco but it looks like someone has looked into the testing question with them before.

well put. the term "arftermarket" is used a bit too loosely around here. and technically speaking, the kiddos we put in seats fall into the "aftermarket" category ;) :D. i know for a fact that MY kiddos weren't made, or marketed for that matter, by graco or any other carseat manufacturer. :)

[brooklynsmommy]

I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner but I think using PUL (used for cloth diapers) would make a fantastic mat under a car seat! Cloth diaper sewers would know exactly what I mean. Its basically a layer of material that has a layer of polyurethane laminate on the other side. They have cotton sided and nylon sided stuff. You could even get print if you wanted.

[azgirl71]

I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner but I think using PUL (used for cloth diapers) would make a fantastic mat under a car seat! Cloth diaper sewers would know exactly what I mean. Its basically a layer of material that has a layer of polyurethane laminate on the other side. They have cotton sided and nylon sided stuff. You could even get print if you wanted.

GOod idea, but still not approved and the laminate part would be condisered rubberized unacceptable. You do not want anything grippy under a car seat.

[azgirl71]

Not trying to be difficult, but a few thoughts. One is that the term "aftermarket" to me implies an accessory made by another company, versus something made by the same seat manufacturer for a given restraint. A strict definition of the term aftermarket, to include anything bought "after" the initial sale, would preclude using even things like accessory bases, which is of course an absurb thought. Likeweise, Graco sells head supports/harness covers for the Snugride seats that might be different from the type originally supplied with the seat; I don't think anyone would argue that that would not be allowed since the item has been crash tested with the seat. On the other hand, trying to use that particular accessory with another brand seat would clearly fall into the aftermarket waters; it might or might not be OK, without proper testing one can't be certain.

I found and looked over, with a bit of Googling, the latest CFR text for FMVSS 213 (http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2007/octqtr/pdf/49cfr571.213.pdf), as well as the Laboratory Test Procedure (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/DOT/NHTSA/Vehicle%20Safety/Test%20Procedures/Associated%20Files/TP213-9a.pdf) for restraint. The reg (as i read it) doesn't prohibit the use of a mat in the design of a seat (unless I am missing something in a some other CFR unknown to me) and this document is the legal "bottom line" in terms of the criteria for minimum safe seat design and performance as of now. It is a performance standard, within the basic requirements of design (e.g. how the harness system is layed out, how the restraint can attach to the car, etc.), not an absolute specification (look at the great variety of design in restraints that meet the same standard). If a seat (with or without a mat,any other accessory or variation of trim as is the case with many "submodels" of a given seat) can meet the performance standards in the CFR per the test procedure protocol, then that is what I would consider a safe (and legal) restraint system; I don't see what other "set standard" there might need to be for safety.

I realize that there is a degree of nuance here in regards to the specific subject (what exactly makes a given accessory/option safe), but it perhaps only reinforces one basic rule of safe restraint use; if it HASN'T been tested, you (or in this case the child) is the test "dummy" (literally and figuratively). Otherwise, I think we have to trust (within reason), the current regs to lead us in the right direction.

Respectfully submitted as I see it from a practical standpoint (and I hope this makes sense posting at this late hour).

p.s. I still haven't gotten a response myself from Graco but it looks like someone has looked into the testing question with them before.

If it did not come out of the box with you car seat it is considered an after market product and should not be used period. However, NHTSA, does allow the use of certain products such as bases to be used as long as it is approved by the company. The aftermarket headrests that Graco manufactures are still considered aftermarket evwn though they are mad by Graco and are not approved for use even in thier seats per the cirriculum. In child passenger Safety, Less is More.

Kudos for researching it, but until it is change in the cirriculum even the info fm NHSTA means nothing to an instuctor who is teaching techs. We cannot sway from the cirriculum that has been given to us. Tehs should not sway from what they are taught either.

[jen_nah]

well put. the term "arftermarket" is used a bit too loosely around here. and technically speaking, the kiddos we put in seats fall into the "aftermarket" category ;) :D. i know for a fact that MY kiddos weren't made, or marketed for that matter, by graco or any other carseat manufacturer. :)

Okay come on SPB I think you are just trying to be funny now. The word "aftermarket" means in this stance not crash tested with the seat. They crash test car seats with dummies that represent a child. Who in their right mind would allow them to use a real child. They don't test these seats unoccupied b/c what would be the point there.

[jen_nah]

If it did not come out of the box with you car seat it is considered an after market product and should not be used period. However, NHTSA, does allow the use of certain products such as bases to be used as long as it is approved by the company. The aftermarket headrests that Graco manufactures are still considered aftermarket evwn though they are mad by Graco and are not approved for use even in thier seats per the cirriculum. In child passenger Safety, Less is More.

Kudos for researching it, but until it is change in the cirriculum even the info fm NHSTA means nothing to an instuctor who is teaching techs. We cannot sway from the cirriculum that has been given to us. Tehs should not sway from what they are taught either.

Not trying to be difficult, but a few thoughts. One is that the term "aftermarket" to me implies an accessory made by another company, versus something made by the same seat manufacturer for a given restraint. A strict definition of the term aftermarket, to include anything bought "after" the initial sale, would preclude using even things like accessory bases, which is of course an absurb thought. Likeweise, Graco sells head supports/harness covers for the Snugride seats that might be different from the type originally supplied with the seat; I don't think anyone would argue that that would not be allowed since the item has been crash tested with the seat. On the other hand, trying to use that particular accessory with another brand seat would clearly fall into the aftermarket waters; it might or might not be OK, without proper testing one can't be certain.

I found and looked over, with a bit of Googling, the latest CFR text for FMVSS 213 (http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2007/octqtr/pdf/49cfr571.213.pdf), as well as the Laboratory Test Procedure (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/DOT/NHTSA/Vehicle%20Safety/Test%20Procedures/Associated%20Files/TP213-9a.pdf) for restraint. The reg (as i read it) doesn't prohibit the use of a mat in the design of a seat (unless I am missing something in a some other CFR unknown to me) and this document is the legal "bottom line" in terms of the criteria for minimum safe seat design and performance as of now. It is a performance standard, within the basic requirements of design (e.g. how the harness system is layed out, how the restraint can attach to the car, etc.), not an absolute specification (look at the great variety of design in restraints that meet the same standard). If a seat (with or without a mat,any other accessory or variation of trim as is the case with many "submodels" of a given seat) can meet the performance standards in the CFR per the test procedure protocol, then that is what I would consider a safe (and legal) restraint system; I don't see what other "set standard" there might need to be for safety.

I realize that there is a degree of nuance here in regards to the specific subject (what exactly makes a given accessory/option safe), but it perhaps only reinforces one basic rule of safe restraint use; if it HASN'T been tested, you (or in this case the child) is the test "dummy" (literally and figuratively). Otherwise, I think we have to trust (within reason), the current regs to lead us in the right direction.

Respectfully submitted as I see it from a practical standpoint (and I hope this makes sense posting at this late hour).

p.s. I still haven't gotten a response myself from Graco but it looks like someone has looked into the testing question with them before.

Exactly Lisa!!!

We as techs have a huge liabitity on our backs. We have to follow the curriculum to a T or we can be held liable if something were to happen to a child. So, Until NHTSA gives me the :thumbsup: on these products I will show parents other alternatives to use.

You as a parent by all means have the final say so in what you do. You just won't hear me and I hope any tech encouraging the use of these products until we have further testing to back that they are safe.

[joolsplus3]

I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner but I think using PUL (used for cloth diapers) would make a fantastic mat under a car seat! Cloth diaper sewers would know exactly what I mean. Its basically a layer of material that has a layer of polyurethane laminate on the other side. They have cotton sided and nylon sided stuff. You could even get print if you wanted.

It's not that grippy, and it's thinner than shelf liner, so I don't see why not....

So we have two stances, the NHTSA is the all powerful and mighty Oz stance, or the 'is it actually dangerous?' stance. Oh, I guess there's three... don't forget the seat manuals that *encourage* you to use something.. :whistle:

PS, I don't use anything, I don't encourage anyone else to, but until someone comes out with injury data to prove seatmats are hurting kids, I won't try to scare parents out of it, personally.

[Defrost]

Actually, I think SPB has a point... it's rather like the argument we've had before about RF tethering. There are techs who think RF tethering is unsafe because you have to "create" your own tether point - their argument is that since the carseat was never tested with THAT particular tether point, then we can't say for sure how it will perform in a crash.

To me, that's like arguing that we should only use carseats that have been tested in the specific vehicle we're driving - we already know that manufacturers don't test seats with every single possible seat belt available out there.

Anyway, I think SPB was just trying to make the point that we never duplicate crash-test specifications when we use a carseat in our vehicles.

[brooklynsmommy]

The laminate side is actually more slick than it is grippy.

[azgirl71]

I have Haute Pocket and Pocket Change dipes and IME it is not slick when it is in contact with itself or a similar surface such as leather. I took one out to DH's truck and turneit so the laminat was on the outside. It was grippy to the leather. I will admit not as grippy as shelf liner, but still grippy. I think for a cloth seat it would be fine if a caregiver chose to use it. I would still be leary of it. Again a great idea.

So who is going to make a mat with this ang get a peatent and NHTSA to approve it for car seat installs in the cirriculum. :rolleyes:

[joolsplus3]

I think we have so many members here now we could all chip in just a few bucks to open our crash testing facility and start designing seats and safe products to use with them, couldn't we? :love:

[azgirl71]

I think we have so many members here now we could all chip in just a few bucks to open our crash testing facility and start designing seats and safe products to use with them, couldn't we? :love:

We probably could. I want a variety of vehicle seats though not just bench seats. :p

[Wineaux]

There is a difference between an aftermarket product and an accessory. Some seat manufacturers make seat toys, etc that they list on the package as "made for" seat models X,Y, and Z. Those are tested accessories and not aftermarket products. If a manufacturer tests and markets a seat cover as an accessory, then we must assume its safety. Why? Because the entire car seat industry is predicated on self testing by the manufacturers, and not NHTSA.

[jen_nah]

There is a difference between an aftermarket product and an accessory. Some seat manufacturers make seat toys, etc that they list on the package as "made for" seat models X,Y, and Z. Those are tested accessories and not aftermarket products. If a manufacturer tests and markets a seat cover as an accessory, then we must assume its safety. Why? Because the entire car seat industry is predicated on self testing by the manufacturers, and not NHTSA.

I do agree with you on that! I wouldn't pressure a parent to remore a head support that Graco said was safe with the seat the parent has. Now I would have a parent remove a non car seat manufacture seat protector or towel b/c that product was not crash tested with that seat unless the manual approves it. If the manual says a towel is acceptable under the seat then I am okay with it b/c we are using the seat per the manual. But, If a parent comes in with a Chicco and wants to put a towel under it nope not going to happen if they want my help. I live in a proper use state and I don't want my b*tt on the line either.

[skaterbabscpst]

well put. the term "arftermarket" is used a bit too loosely around here. and technically speaking, the kiddos we put in seats fall into the "aftermarket" category ;) :D. i know for a fact that MY kiddos weren't made, or marketed for that matter, by graco or any other carseat manufacturer. :)


"Aftermarket" implies a level of acceptance that shouldn't be there (at least, as far as this topic is concerned), especially since the correct term is "unregulated product."

There is a difference between an aftermarket product and an accessory. Some seat manufacturers make seat toys, etc that they list on the package as "made for" seat models X,Y, and Z. Those are tested accessories and not aftermarket products. If a manufacturer tests and markets a seat cover as an accessory, then we must assume its safety. Why? Because the entire car seat industry is predicated on self testing by the manufacturers, and not NHTSA.

I agree.

[aisraeltax]

i LOVE the pull idea!!! now to get my hands on a large piece!

[oursonend]

Hi! I just came over to this thread from TBW and I have a specific question that relates to this thread.

Does anyone know specifically whether the car seat mats sold by Sunshine Kids are okay for use with a Sunshine Kids Radian? This one: http://ca.skjp.com/products/index.php?v=detail&cid=33&name=SuperMat8076&id=15

Or http://ca.skjp.com/products/index.php?v=detail&cid=33&name=UltraMat2242&id=17

(I hear you about the marketing ploys, because they actually say in the description that it prevents the "permanent seat indentations")

Also, anyone know if the pee pads that sit on top of the seat are safe? Again, sold by SKJP and used on a SKJP radian.
http://ca.skjp.com/products/index.php?v=detail&cid=20&name=DrySeat2962&id=124

I'm just a bit confused about "after market" and whether its okay. These products obviously violate the "what came in the box nothing more" argument, but since they are by the same company for a specific product, I wonder. My assumption was tht they were fine, but now I'm curious.

Also, this one doesn't concern me but since it was mentioned I will ask your collective opinion: What about this grip-it? http://ca.skjp.com/products/index.php?v=detail&cid=33&name=GripIt8670&id=3

Thanks!

[Judi]

I would stay away from the mats. They aren't needed anyway and are too thick. I towel works just fine. The dry seat, I would use.

[MissKatie]

Some of this sounds like an excellent topic for the tech forum, where we could try to come to a consensus without confusing everyone :):twocents:

[skaterbabscpst]

Not really. Our training says no, most car seat manufacturers say no, there's really no need for them, and many of them cause problems. There's nothing to debate IMO.

[Connor's Mom]

Especially since this thread is 6 months old and the topic has been covered a million different ways since then (and before then too), lol. :p

[jen_nah]

Hi! I just came over to this thread from TBW and I have a specific question that relates to this thread.

Does anyone know specifically whether the car seat mats sold by Sunshine Kids are okay for use with a Sunshine Kids Radian? This one: http://ca.skjp.com/products/index.php?v=detail&cid=33&name=SuperMat8076&id=15

Or http://ca.skjp.com/products/index.php?v=detail&cid=33&name=UltraMat2242&id=17

(I hear you about the marketing ploys, because they actually say in the description that it prevents the "permanent seat indentations")

Also, anyone know if the pee pads that sit on top of the seat are safe? Again, sold by SKJP and used on a SKJP radian.
http://ca.skjp.com/products/index.php?v=detail&cid=20&name=DrySeat2962&id=124

I'm just a bit confused about "after market" and whether its okay. These products obviously violate the "what came in the box nothing more" argument, but since they are by the same company for a specific product, I wonder. My assumption was tht they were fine, but now I'm curious.

Also, this one doesn't concern me but since it was mentioned I will ask your collective opinion: What about this grip-it? http://ca.skjp.com/products/index.php?v=detail&cid=33&name=GripIt8670&id=3

Thanks!

You shouldn't put "ANYTHING" (towel or mat) under your seat. It's not needed and a non regulated item.

Are you aware Sunshine Kids makes a product called the Mighty-Tite (http://ca.skjp.com/products/index.php?v=detail&cid=33&name=MightyTite3229&id=6). This product is listed as "crash tested" but not even SKJP will allow this product to be used on "THEIR" own seats. Now tell me how is this type of product going to be safe on any seat when they don't allow it on their own seats.

[joolsplus3]

There is no prohibition in the radian manual against using the mighty tite.

[jen_nah]

There is no prohibition in the radian manual against using the mighty tite.

True but it also doesn't say you can use it either. When I called SKPG this spring and spoke the one of their CS they are the one that told me that the Mighty Tite could not be used with their seats.

[joolsplus3]

so is that the same as britax telling me on the phone that a thin rubber mat is fine to use?

[Judi]

I was taught in class that a shelf liner is fine. But I don't do it.

[jen_nah]

so is that the same as britax telling me on the phone that a thin rubber mat is fine to use?


I think I would want clarification as to the mat part. Is it shelf grip liner they are talking about or something like the Prince Lion seat protectors?

That can be implied in so many ways. We know shelf grip liner is approved but seat protectors are not. So, I would want to know which she is truly talking about.

Julie your post are coming across like it's okay to use the Mighty Tite with a Radian because it is made by SKJP but we all know non regulated products are not deemed safe.

[Pixels]

Here is what I would do:
Similar to the coat test, where you put the coat on the child, child in the seat, snug up the harness, then take off the coat and see how much slack you get in the harness. I would install with the seat protector mat, mark the seatbelt, remove the seat protector and reinstall with the seatbelt at the same tightness, and see if it meets the 1" rule. (Parental decision, I understand that Techs CAN'T recommend anything other that what's official.)

Of course removing the seat protector will allow you to get the belt tighter just because there is less under the seat. Same as if you took the cushions off the seat and stripped it down to the bare metal, the seat would be sitting lower.

:twocents:

[skaterbabscpst]

Same as if you took the cushions off the seat and stripped it down to the bare metal, the seat would be sitting lower.

Not quite the same. Seat protectors can give what we call "false" installs - this is when the seat seems secure but isn't when the seat is removed. There is no reason to use them, and in some states they're actually illegal.