How important is Electronic Stability Control?

[brightredmtn]

I'm willing to spring for it as an option if it's really worth it. Just wondering if it's really worth it. I live in a very rainy climate if that makes a difference.

[southpawboston]

if you can afford it, go for it. some people will say it's essential, but IMHO, it depends more on the vehicle you are driving. ESC provides a much greater advantage to vehicles that are more prone to losing control and/or rolling over, such as SUVs. small compact cars that have a low rollover risk to begin with will see a smaller advantage to having ESC. if you compare some vehicles on safercars.gov or informedforlife.org, you'll see that most SUVs WITH ESC still have higher rollover risks than small cars WITHOUT.

that said, there will always be SOME advantage to ESC, regardless of vehicle.

[brightredmtn]

I'm thinking of a Honda Civic. From what I can tell, ESC or Vehicle Stability Assist as Honda calls it is only available with the V6 si Civic. At the price that car costs and I'm sure fuel economy loss with a V6 I might as well just get the RAV-4 which is what I really wanted in the first place. BUT if roll over will be less common with a Civic w/o ESC over a RAV-4 then that seems like the smarter solution. Or I go with an Accord with ESC...

Thanks off to check out your links!

BTW does your car have ESC? Can I fly you out to help me buy my car? You are everything my DH is not!

[SusanMae]

There was mention of ESC becoming a mandated standard feature. I want to say either in 09 or 2012.

Susan

[mimieliza]

If I had the option of buying a new car, I would insist on ABS, ESC, and side curtain airbags. If you're springing for a new car, might as well get it as safe as possible!

Maybe look at the Accord? Great gas mileage, and I'm pretty sure the 4 cylinder has ESC.

[southpawboston]

BTW does your car have ESC? Can I fly you out to help me buy my car?

my car doesn't have it. it wasn't even offered as an option until 07. (i got the last of the 06's :rolleyes:). but i'm not going to trade my car for a new version just to get the ESC, even though it would be sort of nice. i don't see that it's worth the depreciation of my current car.

do you live somewhere warm and sunny? then yeah, hook me up with a plane ticket! :D

Maybe look at the Accord? Great gas mileage, and I'm pretty sure the 4 cylinder has ESC.

do they offer the new accord with a 4-cyl? if so, then yeah, great choice. great gas mileage, and they probably offer ESC if not provide it standard. :thumbsup:

[lovinwaves]

After having it and using it often, I wouldn't buy a car without it. I think it is a must for any young or inexperienced driver :twocents:

It turns on more during the winter(an indicator light on the dash lights up when it is in action) when the roads are snowy and/or icy. I did a test once where I switched it off(switch on dash allows you to disable the feature). HUGE HUGE difference. I can't even begin to tell you how much a difference. I was like "wow. I really like this feature"

Now about rain..This feature has come into play for me during a close call. So definitely you can find it useful in the rain.

ESP, saved my Dad's life he believes. He was involved in an accident recently in his Cadillac XLR convertible. A truck in front of him on a 70mph highway lost a large ladder. The ladder came flying at my Dad and he was unable to HUMANELY make moves that saved him life. He said he actually felt the car "take over" :) He swears by this feature, and if you ask him about it he will talk your ear off.

There was a special on tv once about this new feature, and I was wow'ed :eek: Here are some video clips I think you will enjoy. Show these to Dh to help get him onboard to pay for this additional feature.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvEXJVZ64oY

grrr... I can't find the video I was looking for. I will edit this post and add it later once I find it, but the above video will give you an idea of how it can help performance in the rain ;)

[mimieliza]

do they offer the new accord with a 4-cyl? if so, then yeah, great choice. great gas mileage, and they probably offer ESC if not provide it standard. :thumbsup:

oh, yes, it comes with a 4-cyl. From Honda's site (http://automobiles.honda.com/accord-sedan/price.aspx?Model=CP2538EW):

LX
The Accord LX Sedan offers everything you need to make a smart car purchase. It comes with a 177-hp, 2.4-liter i-VTEC® 4-cylinder engine, Drive-by-Wire™ throttle system and double wishbone front and independent multi-link rear suspension. Air conditioning with air-filtration and illuminated steering wheel-mounted audio and cruise controls add interior refinement. The list of standard safety features is a long one, including: Vehicle Stability Assist™ (VSA®) with traction control, Advanced Compatibility Engineering ™ body structure (ACE™), anti-lock braking system (ABS) , front side airbags, side curtain airbags, Tire Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS), Daytime Running Lights (DRL), active front head restraints and more


The LX is the base model, and starts at around $20,000 for the 2008 model. If you're buying soon, I would look for a 2007 (I like the styling better, and maybe you would get a deal).

My mileage in our Accord was always around 30 mpg - I had a 2004 which is the same styling as the 2007.

[brightredmtn]

If you're buying soon, I would look for a 2007 (I like the styling better, and maybe you would get a deal).

From what I can tell only the V6s before 2008 had ESC :(

http://automobiles.honda.com/certified-used/2007/accord-sedan/safety.aspx

[twokidstwodogs]

I did a lot of hand-wringing over ESC when I bought my last car. I ended up buying one without it (a Subaru Legacy wagon). Had it been an option, I certainly would have sprung for it, but Subaru has been slow to adopt it. But I didn't have many cars from which to choose that met my criteria (small, sporty station wagon with side curtain airbags for rear passengers). And the Legacy does extremely well in NHTSA rollover tests even without ESC--much better than many SUVs and vans with it, as Southpaw pointed out. Rollovers are where most of the lives are saved with ESC, though it's useful in other circumstances too.

I think it's a must-have for vans, SUVs, and cars being driven primarily by new drivers (agreeing with lovinwaves here), and a really-nice-to-have for everyone else.

[jen_nah]

If I had the option of buying a new car, I would insist on ABS, ESC, and side curtain airbags. If you're springing for a new car, might as well get it as safe as possible!


Those are my requirements for any new vehicle we buy. I even told my mom when she goes to buy a new vehicle those were required in any vehicle she buys from here on out.

[jen_nah]

Have you looked at the Saturn Aura or the new Chevy Malibu?

The Saturn is about $1400 cheaper with the same gas mileage as the Accord. The new Malibu is going to be cheaper then both the Aura & Accord. It's a new model so no crash data but they are expecting 5 star all around again for it.

[brightredmtn]

Have you looked at the Saturn Aura or the new Chevy Malibu?

The Saturn is about $1400 cheaper with the same gas mileage as the Accord. The new Malibu is going to be cheaper then both the Aura & Accord. It's a new model so no crash data but they are expecting 5 star all around again for it.

I still have such a stigma against American cars back from when I was growing up and they were so crappy. I know I need to get over that and at least consider them. I'm mainly interested in Honda or Toyota b/c of their reliability and if I'm buying new, how well they hold their value. My payout from insurance for my stolen 4 year old Corolla was only $2000 less than what I paid! I'm leaning toward a Honda over Toyota because their crash test ratings are better.

I really would be a VW person if they didn't consistently score lowest on reliability ratings.

[jen_nah]

I still have such a stigma against American cars back from when I was growing up and they were so crappy. I know I need to get over that and at least consider them. I'm mainly interested in Honda or Toyota b/c of their reliability and if I'm buying new, how well they hold their value. My payout from insurance for my stolen 4 year old Corolla was only $2000 less than what I paid! I'm leaning toward a Honda over Toyota because their crash test ratings are better.

I really would be a VW person if they didn't consistently score lowest on reliability ratings.

What people forget when they say hold their value is the net cost. You generally pay more for the Toyota/Honda up front so when you trade it in it looks like your vehicle held it's value better then say an American but with the American brand you paid less upfront. All vehicle depericate the same % each year if they are comparable all around (same condition, same options, same mileage, etc...).

As for reliability American vehicle are just as reliable as any other brand on the market. I crack up when I hear this b/c I hear many of you say this then complain when your vehicle is in the shop. But, Here I sit with an '05 Tahoe that has only been in the shop for routine maintance in the 3yrs we have owned it (it has 43K on it).

The vehicles I recommended all got 5 star crash ratings. How is that not just as safe as the Honda Accord when they both got 5 star all around?

I owned an '03 VW Passat. They are the biggest hunk of junk on the road. We owned it for 18mths and it was in the shop 21 times for multiple major problems even some repeatable problems but VW wouldn't buy it back. Heck it spent 1mth in the shop when they couldn't figure out where an oil leak was coming from. They wouldn't even pay my car payment that month. Traded that POS in for my Tahoe and have been happy ever since.

I just wish some would look outside the box and see there are other good products out there then just Honda/Toyota. Not saying they are bad vehicles. I am just for keeping my hard earned money in American pockets and making our dollar stronger.

[dimsumdaddy]

I definitely want it on any new car I buy.

My friends and I participate in HDPE (High Performance Driving Events) which means driving your car on a race track (like laguna seca). These events are NOT races, but the point is to drive the car without speed limits.

A friend (an experienced driving instructor and event coordinator) was driving a relatively new BMW with VSC ON on a track day when it was raining like crazy. He was driving controlled through the turns. And decided to "try it with VSC off". He flipped VCS and continued to drive at the pace he'd been for several laps... and within the first few turns with VCS off he spun the car off the track.

Bottom line, VCS essentially gives you a higher safety margin, which you will be thankful for in emergency situations. It's not an excuse for hooliganism, but it is does make things a notch safer, provided you don't push harder because of it.

VCS is able to do what we simply can't. When we push the brake pedal, we are applying the brakes evenly (as distributed by the brake proportion system) over all 4 wheels. VCS essentially has individual controls over each wheel, as if we had 4 feet on 4 different brake pedals with 4 brains working together to do optimal braking.

[strollerfreak]

Now I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum...I had ESC in the Mountaineer that I drove last year and I *HATED* it with a hot fiery passion. I turned it off every chance I could when it was wet or snowy out.

BUT....I also drive a 2wd rear-wheel drive vehicle and have for YEARS so I'm used to that and how to safely correct for it in the rain/snow/etc. Since I'm from Michigan that's important.

I hate driving front wheel drive vehicles. :p

[southpawboston]

Now I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum...I had ESC in the Mountaineer that I drove last year and I *HATED* it with a hot fiery passion. I turned it off every chance I could when it was wet or snowy out.


see, that brings up a good point. ESC is not always implemented equally well in different cars. in some cars, ESC is overly intrusive, and tries to correct for *intended* driver input. in other cars, ESC is very unobtrusive, and only kicks in when you really need it. my boss drives a BMW 325xi, and her ESC drives her nuts. she shuts it off every time she gets in the car. i've been talking with some colleagues at work, and with the three snow storms and 17-20" of cumulative snow we've gotten in the past week, i've heard a lot of stories of how ESC just doesn't know how to cope with snow and slush, and is constantly trying to negate driver input (like when you intentionally *want* your tires to spin to get you through a snow pile, for example).

i think that ESC can be a very good thing, not only for tall vans and SUVs, but also for saving your butt during emergency avoidance maneuvers in regular cars, where a novice driver may lose control of the car. but i also suspect that it can have a negative impact on motorists who feel emboldened by the technology, who subconsciously may drive a bit more recklessly, feeling a false sense of security-- ESC "will take care of me".

[strollerfreak]

SPB I do agree...it's implemented differently in every vehicle and it definitely can be (and is) a good thing for certain drivers.

On the other hand one could also argue that some drivers with 4x4 drive more recklessly because of it as well thinking that it will "save" them in adverse weather which is not the true intention of having 4-wheel drive.

The one vehicle that I did have 4-wheel drive in I only used it 3 times.....to pull other vehicles out of ditches in the snow. I never used it, and vowed never to buy a new vehicle with it...beggars can't be choosers when it comes to used though. :twocents:

[southpawboston]

On the other hand one could also argue that some drivers with 4x4 drive more recklessly because of it as well thinking that it will "save" them in adverse weather which is not the true intention of having 4-wheel drive.

i *have* argued this point many times, and my own visual statistics from driving in snow storms tell me this is exactly the case.

[jen_nah]

i *have* argued this point many times, and my own visual statistics from driving in snow storms tell me this is exactly the case.

I don't live in a snow state but when we get bad weather here it's ice and black ice at that. I know from past experiances that front wheel drive vehicles tended to do better in these conditions then any 4x4 (I own a 4x4). Needless to say when we have this kind of weather I stay off the roads. Not because I can't drive in it as I have lived here my whole life it's the west coast transplants we have here that have never seen ice and drive like idiots.

[brightredmtn]

What people forget when they say hold their value is the net cost. You generally pay more for the Toyota/Honda up front so when you trade it in it looks like your vehicle held it's value better then say an American but with the American brand you paid less upfront. All vehicle depericate the same % each year if they are comparable all around (same condition, same options, same mileage, etc...).

This isn't true. It's a fact that the depreciation percentage of a Hyundai is greater than a Honda or Toyota. I don't have hard numbers for the depreciation of an American car vs. Honda or Toyota but it's very true that some brands depreciation faster than others. Yes I do understand that some cars cost less to begin with.

As for reliability American vehicle are just as reliable as any other brand on the market. I crack up when I hear this b/c I hear many of you say this then complain when your vehicle is in the shop. But, Here I sit with an '05 Tahoe that has only been in the shop for routine maintance in the 3yrs we have owned it (it has 43K on it).

According to Consumer Reports 2006 reliability projections there was only one American car that made the "most reliable" list. It was a Chevy Monte Carlo in the sporty cars/convertible/coups category. ALL other most reliable cars were Japanese. The least reliable lists were made up of European and American cars. No Korean cars made either list.

http://www.carlist.com/autonews/2005/autonews_204.html

The vehicles I recommended all got 5 star crash ratings. How is that not just as safe as the Honda Accord when they both got 5 star all around?

I never disputed your report of crash tests. I wrote that I was leaning towards an Accord over a Camry b/c the Accord's safety rating was better.

I owned an '03 VW Passat. They are the biggest hunk of junk on the road. We owned it for 18mths and it was in the shop 21 times for multiple major problems even some repeatable problems but VW wouldn't buy it back. Heck it spent 1mth in the shop when they couldn't figure out where an oil leak was coming from. They wouldn't even pay my car payment that month. Traded that POS in for my Tahoe and have been happy ever since.

ITA. When I was born in 1977 I came home in my mother's 1970 VW camper that she bought in German to tour Europe. She had that car until 1982 when she got a diesel VW Quantum. This car she had until 1998 when she got a diesel VW Jetta. In 2003 the Jetta had just had so many problems she finally gave up. Her mechanic said it had a terminal problem that he had seen quite often and VW wouldn't own up and recall the car. She was a LOYAL VW owner but in 2003 she bought a Civic Hybrid and has never looked back. Our family is done with VW.


I just wish some would look outside the box and see there are other good products out there then just Honda/Toyota. Not saying they are bad vehicles.

I already wrote that I should get over my stigma against American cars and consider them.

I am just for keeping my hard earned money in American pockets and making our dollar stronger.

There are plenty of foreign car manufactures who have factories in America. So in many cases you can buy a foreign car and still keep money in American pockets.

Thank you for your two suggestions I will definitely check out the Saturn.

[brightredmtn]

i think that ESC can be a very good thing, not only for tall vans and SUVs, but also for saving your butt during emergency avoidance maneuvers in regular cars, where a novice driver may lose control of the car. but i also suspect that it can have a negative impact on motorists who feel emboldened by the technology, who subconsciously may drive a bit more recklessly, feeling a false sense of security-- ESC "will take care of me".

I have been driving for 14 years but I have no idea what to do in an emergency situation. My grandmother on the other hand grew up on a farm with a car nutso father. My mom has told many stories of how her superior driving skills saved their lives on numerous occasions (all while 5 kids were standing on the seats.) I definitely like that it would help me in a swerve or something horrible, cause really I'm clueless on what I should do if something runs in front of me etc...

[UlrikeDG]

AAA has classes to help with that, depending on where you live.

[brightredmtn]

AAA has classes to help with that, depending on where you live.

Awesome! I will look in to the classes.

[dimsumdaddy]

I definitely want it on any new car I buy.

My friends and I participate in HDPE (High Performance Driving Events) which means driving your car on a race track (like laguna seca). These events are NOT races, but the point is to drive the car without speed limits.

A friend (an experienced driving instructor and event coordinator) was driving a relatively new BMW with VSC ON on a track day when it was raining like crazy. He was driving controlled through the turns. And decided to "try it with VSC off". He flipped VCS and continued to drive at the pace he'd been for several laps... and within the first few turns with VCS off he spun the car off the track.

Bottom line, VCS essentially gives you a higher safety margin, which you will be thankful for in emergency situations. It's not an excuse for hooliganism, but it is does make things a notch safer, provided you don't push harder because of it.

VCS is able to do what we simply can't. When we push the brake pedal, we are applying the brakes evenly (as distributed by the brake proportion system) over all 4 wheels. VCS essentially has individual controls over each wheel, as if we had 4 feet on 4 different brake pedals with 4 brains working together to do optimal braking.

That's wierd. My post didn't show up till after many people had replied.

[UlrikeDG]

New members have their posts moderated at first due to some SPAM attacks we've had to deal with in the past. The post was approved, and then people started to reply to it. You probably just didn't see the post after it was approve but before the first reply was made. I promise it did show up before the replies, however, as no one but the forum moderators could see it before it was approved. ;)

[jen_nah]

This isn't true. It's a fact that the depreciation percentage of a Hyundai is greater than a Honda or Toyota. I don't have hard numbers for the depreciation of an American car vs. Honda or Toyota but it's very true that some brands depreciation faster than others. Yes I do understand that some cars cost less to begin with.



According to Consumer Reports 2006 reliability projections there was only one American car that made the "most reliable" list. It was a Chevy Monte Carlo in the sporty cars/convertible/coups category. ALL other most reliable cars were Japanese. The least reliable lists were made up of European and American cars. No Korean cars made either list.

http://www.carlist.com/autonews/2005/autonews_204.html



I never disputed your report of crash tests. I wrote that I was leaning towards an Accord over a Camry b/c the Accord's safety rating was better.



ITA. When I was born in 1977 I came home in my mother's 1970 VW camper that she bought in German to tour Europe. She had that car until 1982 when she got a diesel VW Quantum. This car she had until 1998 when she got a diesel VW Jetta. In 2003 the Jetta had just had so many problems she finally gave up. Her mechanic said it had a terminal problem that he had seen quite often and VW wouldn't own up and recall the car. She was a LOYAL VW owner but in 2003 she bought a Civic Hybrid and has never looked back. Our family is done with VW.




I already wrote that I should get over my stigma against American cars and consider them.



There are plenty of foreign car manufactures who have factories in America. So in many cases you can buy a foreign car and still keep money in American pockets.

Thank you for your two suggestions I will definitely check out the Saturn.


I would like to see where you find that certain vehicles depericate faster then Honda/Toyota. I have researched this extensivily and have never seen such a thing.

As for Consumer Reports I don't trust most of the things they test esp when it comes to safety & reliablity. They sure messed up big time earlier this year. I also find it funny b/c other creditable auto magazines have given American vehicle top marks for reliability. These magazines are doing long term real world testing. ETA: I just read the article you posted. It really was all over the board realibity wise from the article. From the article it showed all makers had reliabilty issues or where more reliable even if vehicle made from the same platiform. Some of the models they had on their list also have just been redesigned. You also have to look at how old that vehicle platform is too. If it's a platform that has been out 8-10yrs with just cosmetic changes sure the reliablity isn't going to be up to today's standards. But, Back when that vehicle first came out it probably made the list in reliabilty b/c it was using current technology. It's like comparing a 1998 vehicle to a 2008 vehicle is crash testing. There is no way a vehicle from 1998 will meet todays standards. So in the end there is A LOT of factors people miss when reading these articles.

True Honda & Toyota have plants here but all your money is not staying in America to help our American economy which really needs our help right now. Look where your parts are coming from. In foreign vehicle the domestic content is less then 50% but in American brands it's up in the high 70-80% range. Also look at how many American workers American brands are employing compared to foreign brands. Just GM alone has 3/4th as many American auto employees then all the foreign brands in the US alone.

I agree VW has some major issues. The car has nice and rode great but I needed something dependable as my vehicle is what transports my girls 95% of the time. After the transmission problems almost left me stranded with just my 2 girls and myself on the side of a very busy major highway I was DONE with it. I was very luck when this occured I was really close to my mother's work and was able to make it there. I called the VW to come and get it and then called my dh to come and get us and we drove straight to the Chevy dealership and bought my Tahoe. It was a huge deal for us to buy a foreign vehicle but we both wanted something sporty to drive but not so hard on the pocket book.

[Jeanum]

Rather than beat the recurrent dead horse of buy American vs. foreign vehicles and what really constitutes either vehicle category in our globalized auto industry, let's steer this thread back on course to the OP's stability control question. :)

SusanMae is right about stability control becoming a mandated standard feature on new cars in the U.S. by 2012. Here's a MSN Autos article about the requirement and about stability control: http://editorial.autos.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=435633


In the meantime, before it becomes mandatory, I highly recommend a model already equipped with standard or optional stability control if at all possible. :) I learned to drive in the snow way before ABS, traction control, and stability control were typically available in most cars, with the exception of some uber luxury models. That being said, I have recently grown to appreciate the merits of stability control, not just for a higher profile van or SUV, but for a lower profile passenger car as well. This may have something to do with our street going unplowed for 3 days after the most recent major snowstorm, and the tendency for black ice to build up at the entrances into our sub from the main roads, where turning without spinning out can be a dicey experience. ;) In the vehicles I've researched, or the two we currently own with stability control, there is a switch to deactivate it on or underneath the dashboard for those who view it as too "big brotherish." I've yet to turn the switch off though in our cars, because so far I'm more than happy to have it active. It's also hard to anticipate when you might hit black ice/puddles/or need to make a defensive driving avoidance maneuver which could benefit from having stability control active, so I'm inclined to leave it on. :twocents:

[tl01]

SPB I do agree...it's implemented differently in every vehicle and it definitely can be (and is) a good thing for certain drivers.

On the other hand one could also argue that some drivers with 4x4 drive more recklessly because of it as well thinking that it will "save" them in adverse weather which is not the true intention of having 4-wheel drive.

The one vehicle that I did have 4-wheel drive in I only used it 3 times.....to pull other vehicles out of ditches in the snow. I never used it, and vowed never to buy a new vehicle with it...beggars can't be choosers when it comes to used though. :twocents:


I would agree that it is implemented differently on each brand/model of car. If you are going to be racing a whole lot (which I doubt) then it will likely drive you nuts. On some cars it can be intrusive; luckily, on the cars I've had it, it has never been a problem. ESC has only turned on when I've thought it was necessary. ESC is a requirement for me.