How important is SIP, really?

[ZephyrBlue]

I'm wondering how important SIP really is in a convertible seat. I bought the BV over the MA for my DS because of the TSIP, and one of the reasons I bought the Como was for the SIP. I won't buy another convertible seat w/OUT SIP, but that's just how I feel; it might be totally overrated, but I feel that it's important. Does anyone know how much SIP really improves the protection of a child's head and body?

[natysr]

I personally feel it is very important.

I'm not so sure if the TSIP is better than the SIP, as both the MA and BLVD have the EPS foam I would think that are pretty close.

But if you are talking about a seat with no ESP foam versus one with it, I would definately never buy another seat without ESP foam.

We already know that motorcycle helmets save lives, and those all have ESP foam.

I think the ESP foam is particularly important for side impact crashes.

So, my answer to your question of "How important is SIP" is that it is important enough to me that I replaced our secondary carseat that was in perfectly good condition, was new, unexpired and cost me $160 because it did not have ESP foam with a new Britax.

[ZephyrBlue]

Natalie, I also replaced both of our spare seats (Sceneras), partly because I don't trust Dorel, but the lack of EPS foam was a big consideration, as well. I won't put my kids in a seat w/out EPS foam, either. And I think the BLVD offers a larger measure of protection than the MA, enough for me to spend the extra $$ and have the reduced head growth room, but I don't know if it just makes me "feel" like he's safer, or if it truly makes a big difference, kwim?

[southpawboston]

there was a proposed international standard called ISO14626 which was supposed to test for side impact, with prescribed maximum values for head and chest loads during an experimental sled test done to simulate a side impact. the standard got rejected among the majority of european countries who were voting on it, the main reason being the irreproducibility of the testing method. nevertheless, the standard called for any seat that met the standard to be "qualified" to be labeled as having SIP. since the standard was never approved, there's no governing body legally preventing any seat manufacturer from using that term... recaro states that all of its seats (including the new comos/signos-- just look on the first or second page of the owner's manual) conform to ISO14626, despite that fact that it remains a non-approved standard. so hypothetically speaking, if that standard was in fact ratified, the recaros would in fact qualify as true "SIP". recaro also states the actual tested values for their seats versus the limits prescribed by the standard. i have not been able to find those values for the como/signo, but i did find them for the YS (it's printed on some of the info that came with the seat, and i also found it online).

i don't know what "standard" britax or any other manufacturer uses as a basis for their labeling a seat as "SIP" or not (e.g., BV, PP primo viago, etc). if there is an approved and binding standard for any european countries, i don't know what it is...

that said, i personally believe in SIP and will probably never buy a seat not specifically advertised as having it. since US-spec seats aren't required to be tested *at all* for side impact, then i don't trust any seat unless it specifically states some sort of SIP, whether it simply be marketing or real... even if it is purely marketing, it at least *infers* that the seat does better than the minimum standard (read: none) for side impact.

[LuvBug03]

you know the radian is listed as having SIP... if that tells you how uncontrolled the term is...

A harness alone already offers a lot of SIP, then add the EPS or EPP foam and that make it better... other than those there is no real standard as to what protects better so we really dont know that one is better than the other.

Its sort of like the statements "exceeds government standards" well... it sounds good, BUT... it COULD just be a fraction better than the set standard and they wouldnt be lieing...


I do prefer to get a harness seat with EPS/EPP foam because I know it will protect even just a little bit better than a seat without... but I am not bent on buying a seat labeled as having SIP not even knowing if it really has more than any other seat...

[BABYGIRLLYNDSEY]

[QUOTE=LuvBug03;221458]you know the radian is listed as having SIP... if that tells you how uncontrolled the term is...


The Radian does have EPS foam in the sides and back of the seat. Does that mean it has SIP or not??? :confused:

[ZephyrBlue]

This is what Britax says re: the SIP in the BLVD: "Severe frontal crashes are the deadliest type of crash. All restraints certified for sale in the USA are tested in frontal crashes. Side impacts are the second deadliest type of crash to children in child restraints. The reinforced headrest is lined with EPS foam to absorb energy in side and rear impacts. Its design cradles the head to keep it away from protruding parts and minimize and cushion violent side to side movements."

So maybe there is no standard that Britax TSIP passes, at all. I was under the impression that there was a standard and that certain seats had been tested and passed- the BLVD, PW, Monarch, Como, Signo, etc.

Very interesting SPB, thanks for the info!!

[LuvBug03]

The Radian does have EPS foam in the sides and back of the seat. Does that mean it has SIP or not??? :confused:

depends on the definition of SIP... see that is where it is tricky... there IS NO set standard so how do we REALLY know when it has SIP or not?
It IS a harness seat and it DOES have EPS foam so I would say it has more SIP than a seat that doesnt... but as far as "wings" and shellwalls it has little.
We just dont have a basis for what should or shouldnt be labeled as having it and what doesnt and since all harness seats protect better in side impacts then shouldnt all harness seats be labeled SIP?

and then we get into TSIP...

By them NOT passing a law for a standard they have left open a whole confusing area where you can just throw the term around and people dont know if it has meaning or not :(

[Namegirl]

It's important to me. There are no center seats in my car, so everyone is outboard and I'd much prefer TSIP in all my seats.

That said, I have a Marathon (purchased before I had this car OR strong feelings about SIP) and I'm quite confident that it wil perform very well in a side-impact crash. But next time around, I will be looking for TSIP.

[laurenrachey]

Borrowed from Tiffany's website... http://www.freewebs.com/sacredjourneys/preschoolpreteen.htm

If you watch the videos under "Vital Importance of Boosters" those speak volumes to me. I know a 5 point harness helps to drastically reduce the amount of movement, but still, I could see I child smacking his head like that on the door and/or window, even in a 5 pt.

So to me, even though I only have one child and his seat is installed in the middle, I drive an older car with like zero safety features, SIP is topping my features list.

[ZephyrBlue]

So would the thick shellwalls and larger depth mean that technically, the Regent would have more SIP than a Radian? Not using specific terms like TSIP, just regular old "side impact protection"?

[LuvBug03]

Id say deeper sidewalls would be better than shallow ones... but there is no fact to base it on, it just seems to make sense. If the child's head is fully consumed by the shell walls then its not going to hit the side of the car... so it would seem to have better protection in that area.

[Betsyconnersmommy]

depends on the definition of SIP... see that is where it is tricky... there IS NO set standard so how do we REALLY know when it has SIP or not?
It IS a harness seat and it DOES have EPS foam so I would say it has more SIP than a seat that doesnt... but as far as "wings" and shellwalls it has little.
We just dont have a basis for what should or shouldnt be labeled as having it and what doesnt and since all harness seats protect better in side impacts then shouldnt all harness seats be labeled SIP?

and then we get into TSIP...

By them NOT passing a law for a standard they have left open a whole confusing area where you can just throw the term around and people dont know if it has meaning or not :(

Ok this is tricky. What about the Evenflo Triumph. I'm soo confused here. I have one and it has the EPP (that's what it says on the box, and instructions, but isn't EPP the same stuff as EPS??) foam and has deep "wings" aroudn the head. the Advance has EPP foam in the head wings, above the head and around the hips and legs area. So is is a SIP or a TSIP? And just WHAT does the T stand for anyway. I know SIP stands for Side impact protection (right, or am i waaaayyyy off base?)

Beth

[BABYGIRLLYNDSEY]

So would the thick shellwalls and larger depth mean that technically, the Regent would have more SIP than a Radian? Not using specific terms like TSIP, just regular old "side impact protection"?


That is a great question. Any tech's out there? Also, don't forget that the Radian has a steel frame inside it. The Regent is I think some sort of stronger plastic? That's what I heard anyway. I don't have a Regent so I don't know.

[Betsyconnersmommy]

The Radian is the only seat i've seen that has steel alloy and not plastic.
Beth

[arly1983]

That is a great question. Any tech's out there? Also, don't forget that the Radian has a steel frame inside it. The Regent is I think some sort of stronger plastic? That's what I heard anyway. I don't have a Regent so I don't know.

Yes, the Regent shell is "roto-molded" whatever that means.

[southpawboston]

The Radian is the only seat i've seen that has steel alloy and not plastic.
Beth

i believe the safeguard seat has an all alloy frame as well.

[southpawboston]

okay, my own take on "SIP" is more than the presence or absence of EPS/EPP foam. every seat i have seem with "SIP" has bolsters that reduce the movement of the head, so the head doesn't go slamming into the side of carseat shell with any great velocity-- foam or no foam.

if you think about head forces experienced in a crash, any acceleration that the head sees before hitting a surface (like the side of a carseat) is going to cause a significant load increase than if the head was already in contact with that surface, and thus was not allowed any acceleration. my instinct tells me that that's why every seat i've seen that is labeled as "SIP" has those headwings-- the BV, parkway, recaros, peg perego primi viaggo, etc...

our old triumph 5 had EPS foam, as does our APEX, but i would NOT consider either of those seats to have "SIP"!

[VLsMom]

Ok this is tricky. What about the Evenflo Triumph. I'm soo confused here. I have one and it has the EPP (that's what it says on the box, and instructions, but isn't EPP the same stuff as EPS??) foam and has deep "wings" aroudn the head. the Advance has EPP foam in the head wings, above the head and around the hips and legs area. So is is a SIP or a TSIP? And just WHAT does the T stand for anyway. I know SIP stands for Side impact protection (right, or am i waaaayyyy off base?)

Beth

Britax came up with the term "True Side Impact Protection"...hence "TSIP".

This thread has a good explanation of what the difference is between the two (EPP vs EPS):

http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=23894

[southpawboston]

Britax came up with the term "True Side Impact Protection"...hence "TSIP".


right... that's just their trademarked name for "SIP". recaro's is "RSIP". everybody wants to trademark anything and everything they can. :rolleyes:

[UlrikeDG]

EPS foam is simply an energy absorbing foam that helps reduce the likelihood of injury due to the head colliding with the shell of the child restraint. How much does it reduce the risk? We don't know.

Genuine side impact protection helps reduce the likelihood that the child's head (and other body parts) will collide with the interior of the vehicle (metal beams, glass, etc). Compare these Austrian side impact crash tests from 2002. The Concord Lift Pro (http://www.oeamtc.at/netautor/html_seiten/kisitest_2002/videos/test2002/seitencrash/concordliftpro.mpg) provides excellent SIP. The Maxi Cosi Rodi (http://www.oeamtc.at/netautor/html_seiten/kisitest_2002/videos/test2002/seitencrash/maxicosirodi.mpg) and the Chicco Quasar Evolution (http://www.oeamtc.at/netautor/html_seiten/kisitest_2002/videos/test2002/seitencrash/chiccoquasarevolution.mpg) provide marginal to poor SIP, allowing the dummy's head or head and torso to hit the vehicle door.

So, just how important is SIP when it comes to child restraints? The answer is, we don't know! There is no federal side impact standard for North American seats. There is no private or public testing agency which releases side impact crash test data comparing various seats. There is no organization which collects real world crash data to provide us with information about how well seats perform in crashes in real life.

While I believe that side impact protection is important, there's no way for me to find out how much "better" a Britax Wizard with SIP is than a Britax Marathon without it. I can't know if a Recaro Como with "RECARO SIP" will reduce my child's risk of death in a side impact crash more than a Britax Marathon with "TSIP" will. There is nothing stopping a company from claiming that any seat provides "side impact protection" no matter how poorly it may perform in tests or actual crashes. Indeed, the Graco Turbo (http://www.oeamtc.at/netautor/html_seiten/kisitest_2004/graco_junior_plus.html) performed poorly in the ÖAMTC tests, but Graco and retailers still claim the seat has "side-impact protection (http://www.elitecarseats.com/Turbo-Booster.pro)." Interestingly, the Römer Kid Plus--the predecessor to the Britax Bodyguard (http://www.epinions.com/content_102769331844) which evolved into the Parkway (http://www.britaxusa.net/products/detail_parkway.aspx)--only received "average" side impact ratings.

Side impact protection for vehicles, however, is much more straight forward (if more expensive). Both NHTSA (http://www.safercar.gov/) and IIHS (http://www.iihs.org/ratings/default.aspx) publish side impact crash tests results for vehicles. For those in the market for a new vehicle, side impact protection isn't something I'd recommend skimping on.

[sotodog]

This might be a silly or obvious question but does the answer change if the car has side impact curtain airbags?

[southpawboston]

This might be a silly or obvious question but does the answer change if the car has side impact curtain airbags?

possibly, but since side curtain airbags are optimised for adult heads, their effectiveness may be much less for carseats. i would suspect that they would be much more beneficial for children who are in boosters rather than in 5-pt harnessed seats, since boosters allow for much more lateral head movement in a side impact crash than a 5-pt harnessed seat. but at any rate, they can't hurt, and even if the child's head never comes into contact with the curtain, the curtain may reduce the amount of glass and other debris sprayed into the interior of the car from the impact.

[southpawboston]

Genuine side impact protection helps reduce the likelihood that the child's head (and other body parts) will collide with the interior of the vehicle (metal beams, glass, etc). Compare these Austrian side impact crash tests from 2002. The Concord Lift Pro (http://www.oeamtc.at/netautor/html_seiten/kisitest_2002/videos/test2002/seitencrash/concordliftpro.mpg) provides excellent SIP. The Maxi Cosi Rodi (http://www.oeamtc.at/netautor/html_seiten/kisitest_2002/videos/test2002/seitencrash/maxicosirodi.mpg) and the Chicco Quasar Evolution (http://www.oeamtc.at/netautor/html_seiten/kisitest_2002/videos/test2002/seitencrash/chiccoquasarevolution.mpg) provide marginal to poor SIP, allowing the dummy's head or head and torso to hit the vehicle door.

did you notice that only the concord had the really massive wings (that look like the YS wings) that extend almost straight out from the seat as opposed to an angle? the other seats whose wings extended out at an angle allowed the head to "roll" off the wings and onto part of the car's structure. :twocents: the britax parkway wings and all the recaro wings don't appear that they would allow that to happen. the wings on something like an apex or turbo booster don't look like they would hold the head from rolling off.

[arly1983]

I LOVE the deep sides on the Como and so wish I wasn't having so many problems with this seat as (at least in my mind) I feel like it is a really really great seat for SIP. The deep sides themselves seem to be better protection than just head wings that might allow the head to row out of the confines of the seat.

Also the larger shell of the regent would seem to offer good SIP to a smaller child at least (with at tight harness) Thought the only thing stoping the lateral moverment would be the child's own neck. So really it would just prevent the head from impacting the side of the vehicle.

I love the idea of SIP but my kids really hate head wings of any kind (little weirdos). I really want to try out a RYS with Jackson one day but at 40 lbs and 17 in top slots, I would be lucky if he lasted a year.

[ZephyrBlue]

This is all really interesting to me. I do like how the BLVD has the head insert that is covered w/EPS foam, since it really does decrease the amount of space between the child's head and the side of the seat. That's the one problem I have w/the MA- it seems like an infant or smaller toddler's head could really gain acceleration and smack into the seat shell. Now I'm wondering if the deep Regent is a better choice for my 4.5yo than the more narrow Radian, in the case of a SI collision. We don't have side curtain air bags. It would be SO much better if seats were all tested in SI collisions and rated accordingly

[arly1983]

I know what you mean, the only places I really like to use my radian is the center 3rd row of my van and the center of my mom or sister's car. I can easily see a child's head smacking the interior of the car.

[True Blue]

LOL now see, I don't see how the Regent really offers much of anything in the way of SIP...IT doesn't seem so deep once your child is 46" and 48lbs...

That said, I was thinking of getting DD a Radian since we are having a new baby and need to get someone a new seat...the baby would be in the middle of the van so would be ok without SIP and be rfing of course. Baby can ride in the MA or DC (probably use the DC since it has the inserts for a while). I was thinking of getting a Radian since it will carry DD further than a BLVD. I considered the Signo, but I feel like the base will make her feel like a baby when she is older (She is very petite and will likely fit in these til she's 7 LOL). I won't buy another Regent with the install changes. They lost me on that one.

At any rate, we're heading to Buy Buy Baby today to see the Radian and Monarch in person, so maybe that will help me decide!

[UlrikeDG]

did you notice that only the concord had the really massive wings (that look like the YS wings) that extend almost straight out from the seat as opposed to an angle? ...the britax parkway wings and all the recaro wings don't appear that they would allow that to happen.

I actually own both the Concord Lift and the Britax Parkway. ;) I got the Lift to use as a spare seat when we were living in Germany, in part because of their crash test ratings. If I get a chance this week, I'll take pictures of them.

[southpawboston]

looking more closely at the videos of the maxi cosi, chicco, and concord, it seems that none of them except the MC protected the shoulder from hitting the vehicle. granted, it's not NEARLY as important to protect the shoulder as it is the head, but i don't see why they can't build in more upper torso protection as well, just for fun. from the videos, it would seem that they would only have to extend out the torso wings a bit more.

[CPSDarren]

EPS foam is simply an energy absorbing foam that helps reduce the likelihood of injury due to the head colliding with the shell of the child restraint. How much does it reduce the risk? We don't know.

Genuine side impact protection helps reduce the likelihood that the child's head (and other body parts) will collide with the interior of the vehicle (metal beams, glass, etc). Compare these Austrian side impact crash tests from 2002. The Concord Lift Pro (http://www.oeamtc.at/netautor/html_seiten/kisitest_2002/videos/test2002/seitencrash/concordliftpro.mpg) provides excellent SIP. The Maxi Cosi Rodi (http://www.oeamtc.at/netautor/html_seiten/kisitest_2002/videos/test2002/seitencrash/maxicosirodi.mpg) and the Chicco Quasar Evolution (http://www.oeamtc.at/netautor/html_seiten/kisitest_2002/videos/test2002/seitencrash/chiccoquasarevolution.mpg) provide marginal to poor SIP, allowing the dummy's head or head and torso to hit the vehicle door.

So, just how important is SIP when it comes to child restraints? The answer is, we don't know! There is no federal side impact standard for North American seats. There is no private or public testing agency which releases side impact crash test data comparing various seats. There is no organization which collects real world crash data to provide us with information about how well seats perform in crashes in real life.

While I believe that side impact protection is important, there's no way for me to find out how much "better" a Britax Wizard with SIP is than a Britax Marathon without it. I can't know if a Recaro Como with "RECARO SIP" will reduce my child's risk of death in a side impact crash more than a Britax Marathon with "TSIP" will. There is nothing stopping a company from claiming that any seat provides "side impact protection" no matter how poorly it may perform in tests or actual crashes. Indeed, the Graco Turbo (http://www.oeamtc.at/netautor/html_seiten/kisitest_2004/graco_junior_plus.html) performed poorly in the ÖAMTC tests, but Graco and retailers still claim the seat has "side-impact protection (http://www.elitecarseats.com/Turbo-Booster.pro)." Interestingly, the Römer Kid Plus--the predecessor to the Britax Bodyguard (http://www.epinions.com/content_102769331844) which evolved into the Parkway (http://www.britaxusa.net/products/detail_parkway.aspx)--only received "average" side impact ratings.

Side impact protection for vehicles, however, is much more straight forward (if more expensive). Both NHTSA (http://www.safercar.gov/) and IIHS (http://www.iihs.org/ratings/default.aspx) publish side impact crash tests results for vehicles. For those in the market for a new vehicle, side impact protection isn't something I'd recommend skimping on.

I agree completely.

As I said on another thread, there are a lot of variables to consider.

On one extreme, in a vehicle with side curtain airbags and good side impact ratings, SIP wings are a nice bonus for a rear-facing model with a 5-point harness, but I would not consider them to be particularly important at all.

On the other extreme, for a booster-age child in an older vehicle without side curtain airbags, I would definitely prefer to see them in a high back booster with SIP wings than in a backless booster.

Models with a 5-point harness offer a some degree of side impact protection even without wings around the head and torso. Without any statistics or trends, it's impossible to say how much improvement SIP features really make. The same could be said about the presence of EPS foam in the shell. Great idea and probably no drawbacks whatsoever, but is it really preventing serious injuries?

All things equal, SIP should be a great feature. On the other hand, there are certainly situations where other factors like fit to child, fit to vehicle and ease-of-use features are probably more important when choosing among seats at a particular price point.

[safeinthecar]

If only we could line the entire interior of the CAR with EPS foam....

Kimberly

[southpawboston]

If only we could line the entire interior of the CAR with EPS foam....

Kimberly

much of it is, actually (well, maybe not EPS/EPP per se, but padded). most parts of the interior that normally come into contact with an occupant are designed to be energy-absorbing, especially the dash structures. some interior door panels are energy absorbing as well.

[safeinthecar]

much of it is, actually (well, maybe not EPS/EPP per se, but padded). most parts of the interior that normally come into contact with an occupant are designed to be energy-absorbing, especially the dash structures. some interior door panels are energy absorbing as well.

I was thinking something along the lines of the cars in the movie Demolition Man. Only without the whole suffocation thing.

Kimberly

[Elizasmom]

Those crash videos, and others I've seen, really show how the Parkway-like headwings protect the head while the angled type allow the head to roll off. However, in these tests the dummies are always sitting with their heads against the back of the seat. In real like, my child is always leaning several inches forward so that only the back of her head is within the Parkway's wings. I do the same thing in the car - the back of my head is never against the headrest.

How many of your children actually sit with their heads against the back of the booster? I'm not talking about my child doing anything improper, just that her normal, comfortable seating position has her head forward. She has to force an unnatural posture to have her head the way it should be. It would seem that she wouldn't get much in the way of TSIP because of this reality. We're getting a Vivo soon, and I hope the ergonomics of that seat encourage her to lead back. I have noticed that my younger child keeps her head within the wings of her Boulevard, but I think the harness sort of forces that.

[arly1983]

Maybe the Vivo is made like the Como...there is so much recline it would uncomfortable not to rest your head on the back of the seat.

[southpawboston]

Maybe the Vivo is made like the Como...there is so much recline it would uncomfortable not to rest your head on the back of the seat.

i think you hit the nail on the head arly :thumbsup:

the YS has a pretty steep recline for a FF-only seat, and that's with the recline knob set for upright! this appears to be recaro's approach with the new como and signo. i don't know if this is how the vivo is designed.

this design induces my DD1 to lean back into her YS (which may also explain why she sleeps so much in this seat). she sometimes does move her head forward, but it's usually to see what her sister next to her is doing or to look out the window. but her "default" position is with her head rested back, with plenty of "wing space" in front of her head. also, her head is always rested back when she's sleeping, as opposed to many seats where the kid's head is slumped forward. so in this case, it may be an example of a seat design that also promotes proper seating behavior.

i'll go out to my car this evening and take a pic of the FF recline. i'll run it through my CAD software and come up with an angle. it would be interesting to see what other angles some other FF carseats have. of course, this will vary from car to car depending on the car's back seat angle.

[UlrikeDG]

Newer incarnations of the SIP seats (like the Britax Monarch) do provide more shoulder/torso protection.

[safeinthecar]

I do the same thing in the car - the back of my head is never against the headrest.




I do the same thing, only for me it's a hair clippy issue.

I sometimes wonder if the darn thing is going to hurt me if I get rear ended and my head slams back against the clippy.

Then again, I'm going to rear end someone else if can't see where I'm going because I didn't put my hair up in the clippy.

Kimberly

[southpawboston]

I do the same thing in the car - the back of my head is never against the headrest.

i'm noticing that more newer cars are designing the headrests to be more tilted more forward, perhaps to reduce the distance from the head? in most car's i've owned, it wasn't possible to keep your head against the head rest without kind of straining your neck back uncomfortably. in my current car, the tilt is much better, even if it's not adjustable, and i can keep my head against it while i'm driving. i notice most german and swedish cars have tilt-adjustable headrests.

[joolsplus3]

If only we could line the entire interior of the CAR with EPS foam....

Kimberly

At Lifesavers one year, they said even a little bit, a couple inches, of foam at the tops of the doors and B pillars would do a TON to prevent injuries... I guess carmakers are going with airbags, but it was pretty impressive how simple it could be to save lives so cheaply...