Please need to be educated about ERF

[jamijesse]

After posting my question the other night I've been looking over other threads. It seems since the last time I visited this site and really had a good look around that extended rear facing is the thing to do.

Let me start by being honest. My ds is one, just turned one August 3rd. He's also 21 pounds. Let me also say that I consider myself dedicated to doing whatever it takes to keep my children safe. I am a car seat nut. NOBODY I know uses their seats properly, most of the time the poor kids aren't even in seats. I am ridiculed by my in laws and others because I have my soon to be six year old in a regent. They say I am a "freak" because I insist on my children absolutely not riding anywhere without being properly buckled into their seats.

That said when my son was just turning 11 months old I turned him FF in his Marathon. I hate to say it but I want to be completely honest here. I hated to do it and it worried me constantly but I just couldn't go on with things the way they were. I've read before other people saying that their child cried or was upset RFing. That was my son but a million times over. My son would get so upset that he would cry until he would vomit. He would get so upset that his shirt would literally be soaked with sweat. He did this in his snugride as well. When we could finally put him into his marathon we hoped and prayed that it would end or at least lessen in severity. It didn't.

I've read again and again to ignore the crying. And of course I more than anyone would much rather put up with my son crying than have him dead from a horrible accident. However it had been at the point that I was a complete basket case. I was so busy trying to do whatever I could to calm him down that I couldn't think straight. I would try to ignore him and still I was such a nervous wreck that I just wasn't safe to drive my children around.

So this is the reason I decided to turn my son around. I'd like to say that his behavior has completely stopped, it hasn't. It has gotten about 95 percent better though. I have no idea why. I don't know why he's calmer turned this way. I used to think he was upset RFing because he couldn't see his dad or I. Well whenever both of us were in the car one would sit in the third row seat of our caravan to try to do calm our son down. It didn't work.

So here we are with my son almost happily riding in his seat. I felt horrible about turning him around, I felt like a bad mother. Then again I felt like a bad mother when my son would throw up on himself because he was so upset, or when he would be beet red and sopping with sweat from his sobbing.

Then he turned one and I thought I was okay. But now I've been reading about extended rear facing and I find myself again with that nagging feeling in the pit of my stomach. That feeling that I'm not doing all that I can to keep my son safe.

From what I've gathered it seems that keeping a child rear facing till they are two is the best idea and that after two it's still a good idea but the difference between rear and forward facing after that point isn't much. Am I correct?

I was hoping you could educate me about extended rear facing so I know exactly what the benefits are. I trust you all here very much. You have been my go to people with questions about my most precious cargo and you've never steered me wrong. I honestly shudder to think if I'd never found this site.

I guess I'm just afraid that I'm putting my baby at risk. I know that turning him ff before one was already bad enough. I just don't know how to make the decision. Talking about it here it seems cut and dry that of course I would keep my son RFing. But in everyday life it was another story.

I'm wondering if I should try it again and see how it goes. Gosh I can't even imagine going back to that. But maybe he wouldn't be that way now, I don't know.

What I honestly want to know is that if I do keep my son forward facing in his marathon am I putting him at risk?

Thanks everyone for your help. I am all ears and cannot wait to learn more about this.

[crunchierthanthou]

Here are a couple of my favorite links regarding ERF. At least, they're the ones that sold me on it when ds was 11 mos.

http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/stayrearfacing.aspx
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9916868/

Rf is safer because the crash forces are distributed into the seat in the most common and most severe types of crashes. Statistics show that it is 4 times safer than ff- especially under age two. Internal decapitation (when the skull separates from the spine) is of higher concern in this age group because cervical vertebrae are not completely formed.

I can send you another sheet regarding cervical vertebrae and internal decapitation if you pm me your email address. I'm sure someone has a link to that info, but I only have it in a pdf.

As far as your son being upset rf, how reclined did you have his seat? My ds was much happier when we decreased the recline.

It's a tough call that you'll have to make as the parent. As far as the laws of physics go, rf is undeniably safer. We'd all do better rf. But being completely stressed and distracted while driving isn't safe either.

[jamijesse]

I will be sure to check those links out. I just read through some info on a couple of other sites. At this point I think I've read enough to at least give it a try again.

As far as the incline goes I'm really not sure as dh always installs the seats because he can get them in much tighter than I can. Maybe that could've been part of the problem.

I would like to say a million thank you's for being open to teaching me and not judging me. I know everyone here is passionate about car seat safety (thank god), so I was afraid to be completely honest about my situation. But honestly I feel the same way as everyone else here. I just unfortunately felt I had no choice.

So I will be sure to read those links in the morning. I'll let you guys know how the RFing trial goes.

By the way does anyone have any ideas on ways to entertain the RFing child? My son can see his sister but thats about it. He can't see much of anything out the window so that's out. We live in a rural area where we have to drive a bit to get anywhere so the rides get to be soooooooooooooooo stressful with him.

I'd love to hear anymore info or advice, and I'll keep you posted!

[joolsplus3]

If he's ff still is the seat top tethered? Top tethering is a huge safety benefit for head and neck injury prevention, that's why kids in Australia have been turned very young for decades now, but are top tethered, and have quite a low rate of injury (nothing's as low as sweden, where kids are RF to at least age 3).
Kids change and grow, he might like RF now, or in a few months, or any time before he's 33 pounds... my dd went happily back RF from age 3 to age 4.5 when she got too heavy for her Marathon RF, so don't rule out the possibility of turning him back. (heck, my kids don't like vegetables, but you just keep offering them till one day they'll eat them, it's like that, it's so important you should keep trying as long as you can)
:)

[keri1292]

You can try adjusting the recline to 30 degrees from vertical using the tether. It's really just as upright as they are FFing since the MA reclines a bit naturally.
Maybe some cheerios in a cup?
Could his reaction be related to reflux?
I understand how you feel a little. My son screamed terribly in the car. That high pitched hysterical cry that would waver between anger, frustration, desperation and occasionally acceptance. I drove around with my pinky in his mouth for months. The only artificial form of comfort that he would accept.
He's 4 and still RF's occasionally when I need to work a three across.
Just keep trying. And keep his seat tethered. You have to do what works for you. :)

[jamijesse]

Reflux is exactly what we all suspected back when he was still small and in the snugride. However we never had these issues any other time so that just didn't make sense. Then he kept it up when he was moved into the marathon.

You mentioned riding around with your finger in their mouth, that was so me. Before we got our van we had a ford focus. I hated everything about that piece of junk except for the fact that my short armed five foot one self could actually reach my son. With the van it's just not happening. I think that makes it harder too. In the focus sometimes I could call him down enough that he would still be crying but not sobbing until he threw up. Now with the van that's just not possible.

I SO wish he could see the DVD player when he's rear facing. It's funny when he's FF he doesn't seem to pay hardly any attention to it. But when he was RFing he was constantly turning his neck and head everywhich way to try to get a view of that thing!!

As far as the cheerios or something like that I am a choking nut case. I've always had this unreasonable fear that my kids will choke. My daughter will be six this month and I still won't let her chew gum, let me tell you do I get flack for that. Anyhow I wouldn't be able to stand having him eating back there and not being able to see him. Not to mention when he gets mad he just throws stuff anyway. That's why no toys or anything do the trick when he's really upset.

This boy is a handful let me tell you. He is extremely emotional. When he's mad or upset he lets you know it that's for sure and there's not much to do to calm him down...well except for mommy holding him much to everyone I know's disgust. Of course this little guy is still sleeping in our bed and waking up for a bottle at night so as you can tell he's sort of running the show around here and has been since he was born. I guess it's hard to explain but he's the type of child that's just intense in every way.

Still I want to try RFing again. I talked to my husband about it today and he looked at me like I was crazy. I was suprised actually because he is a deputy sheriff and sees what happens in bad accidents, he lost his own father in one. I guess he just remembers better than I do how hard it was on everyone with him RFing.

But I told my husband that hello we have nothing to lose and only our son's safety to gain by trying it again. So what's the worst that could happen, we'd have to turn him back around? If so big deal at least I know we tried. I really feel like it's my job as a parent to knowingly do everything in my power to keep my child safe. And thanks to you all here I am now better informed.

So when my husband is on his days off again we're probably going to try to turn our son around again. I really truly hope it works out.

By the way I was just curious for those of you who ERF till the child is quite a bit older. What about long car rides? I've read that the child stays comfortable with their legs like that, but even on long trips? With as antsy as my son is now I can't imagine him once his legs got long enough to go past the seat back. How do you deal with that situation. Like I said around here there's nothing shorter than a half an hour to go anywhere and it's routinely longer than that, sometimes much longer.

And thanks again a million times for being helpful and not judgemental, it means a lot.

[jamijesse]

By the way yes the seat is top tethered.

[joolsplus3]

Which is more comfortable for even long periods of time: Sitting in a la-z-boy recliner or sitting upright with your legs dangling down? Gimme that RF la-z-boy any day, thank you very much! :D
If he's craning his neck up to watch the DVD and it keeps him quiet, then put on a DVD when he's RF... seems like an easy solution... :)
It's normal for kids to nurse all night for a couple of years, waking for a bottle at 11 months is totally OK!

:)

[keri1292]

Congratulations! It sounds like you're the proud parent of a high need baby!

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/5/T050100.asp

It gets better, I promise. :love:

Although they can be intense and hard to parent sanely, they become some fiercely loving, independent, confident, fearless kids and I wouldn't change a thing about my son.

[Defrost]

Hi,

I just wanted to say that you might want to consider reflux again. It can be very tricky, and sometimes the only symptoms are confused as "high-needs." All four of my babies had/have reflux, so I've seen all kinds of stuff. My youngest outgrew her reflux when she was about a year old, but she was a night-waker until she was three and a half. It was really frustrating, and I was certain she'd developed poor sleep habits from co-sleeping. Then we discovered that she hadn't actually outgrown her reflux - we started treating her for reflux and she immediately starting sleeping through the night! Keep in mind that night-waking was her only symptom at that time.

So, I wanted to share our experience in case you've got something similar going on. I've BTDT with having a "high-needs" baby, only to discover that once the reflux was treated, all kinds of things that I didn't think were related to reflux cleared up! It turned out that my "high-needs" third son was actually a very laid-back, easy-going baby with reflux.

[Melanie]

What about putting a baby mirror on the headrest so he could watch the DVD player from there? I realize it's not ideal. In an accident his face could hit it or it could become a projectile. But maybe it would be better RF with the mirror than FF. Just an idea.

[NatenMaddiesMommy]

How about taking the headrest off completely? It may allow him a better view out the rear window. I ditched the mirrors and took of the headrests for both of my RF children. My 3yo loves to look out the back window. He describes everything he sees.

My son was 1yr old when I turned him FF. When I got educated on CPS I turned him back to RF when he was 2.5yo. He hasn't complained at all. We have an Triumph that we use as a spare in our other car. He has outgrown the RF limits for both height and weight in that seat. So when he rides FF in that seat (very rarely) I have noticed that he actually pulls his legs up and sits with his legs crossed rather than have his legs dangle. So I truly believe that he is much more comfortable (and not to mention safer) riding RF.

[safeinthecar]

Well the good thing is the rfing is not permanent. You can easily give it a 3 day free trial. And if it doesn't work now, well maybe in a month or two. While you're at it, make sure to get your DH to teach you how to install the car seat both directions on your own. That way you can switch back and forth without having him look at you like you are crazy:p

Kimberly

FWIW, I turned DS ffing at 18 months, then rfing again at 2 yrs. Even bought a new seat to do it. You can bet most everyone thought I had lost my mind.

[NatenMaddiesMommy]

FWIW, I turned DS ffing at 18 months, then rfing again at 2 yrs. Even bought a new seat to do it. You can bet most everyone thought I had lost my mind.

same here. Out with Triumph in with the Decathlon. I think he'll rear-face to 4yrs no problem.

[safeinthecar]

same here. Out with Triumph in with the Decathlon. I think he'll rear-face to 4yrs no problem.

Good for you!!

My DS is 8 now, but I was able to rf him until a month shy of 4. The only reason I turned him at 18 months although and I really didn't want to, was because his head was even with the top of the RA. I pushed it that far just to get him to 20lbs.

Oh wait, just remembered, he went from the RA into the Britax Elite for another couple of months (until it expired) before I turned him. Then I got the MA as soon as it hit the market. I had to move 5 month old DD into the RA in my car (no big sacrifice as I am not a big fan of infant seats) and put the Snug Ride ( which she fit in until about 1 yr) in her father's car to justify the MA purchase. I guess it got good use out of the MA though as DS just stopped using it about 2 months ago.

Kimberly

[Avery'sMama]

I have to admit, that I have a high-needs, car seat hating DD that I turned at 13 months. I was commuting with her to a nanny job 45 min. away. She screamed from the minute she hit the seat until the minute she got out. It was a nightmare. It was before I was a tech, but I still knew better than to turn her forward facing. I was working 8 or 9 hour days with 4 kids under 4 and commuting a total of 1.5 hours with her screaming the whole time. It was a nightmare. In retrospect, I wish I had tried other things first. I didn't try mirrors, seatback toys or snacks. I also didn't try a new seat (we moved her from a Snugride into a ComfortSport, the BLVD came later). I would turn him again and try everything you can think of that might make the RFing more tolerable. It's hard, and having been there and done that, and knowing what I know now, I still can't say that I would have, for sure, kept her RFing. I would definitly have tried harder, much harder, to make it happen. Good luck :)

[Niea]

It sounds to me that there is a strong possiblity that your son is getting motion-sick in the car. He could have been vomiting, not because he was so upset, but because he was nauseated. Facing forward gives him a better view outside so he can orient himself and not feel so sick. Rear-facing, he probably couldn't see much except the backseat and thus his brain couldn't adjust to the movement.

[skaterbabscpst]

Rear-facing, he probably couldn't see much except the backseat and thus his brain couldn't adjust to the movement.

What? :confused:

[Niea]

What? :confused:

That came out weird, sorry.

What I'm trying to say is this. . .

Motion sickness is the result of a disagreement in the brain between the vestibular system's (in the inner ear) perceived motion and the eyes perceived motion.

The way to solve this disagreement is to focus the eyes way out in the distance, so that the eyes have a better frame of reference for the body's movement. Looking at something close, like the backseat or car interior, a DVD player or book, do not resolve this discrepancy and can make the sickness worse. Having the RF child look out the side windows may help, but for those very sensitive to motion, having the head angled may aggravate the problem.

Usually in the very sensitive individual, focusing on something way out in the distance helps, but it may not prevent the sickness in the first place.

I'm not saying the child should FF and I definitely think RFing is the way to go. I'm merely offering an explanation as to why RFing may make thing worse if motion sickness is the reason.

[skaterbabscpst]

Most kids can look just fine out the back window and see a lot more than if they were FF and having to look at the back of their parents' heads.

[Niea]

Most kids can look just fine out the back window and see a lot more than if they were FF and having to look at the back of their parents' heads.

I'm not trying to argue with you. :confused:

I just know that in my last two cars ('98 Chevy Cavalier and '07 Honda CR-V), the seatback was high enough such that an infant couldn't see out the back window when RF. My DD sees out the back window just fine in our '02 Ford Explorer SporTrac.

Even so, a lot of research has been shown that facing backwards from the direction of travel can aggravate motion sickness, even when a person can clearly see outside. (Do a google scholar search and you'll see what I mean)

Again, I'm not saying the child should be FF. I totally advocate ERF. If it was my child, I would probably try a combination of accupressure and herbal remedies to ease the sickness while still staying RFing.

But clearly you don't agree with me. I don't really have any more to say on the matter, so I'll leave it at that.

[steph]

I just wanted to ask how you have tried to keep him entertained (I don't know if you already asked that)?? Also, if the DVD is a problem I just wouldn't put it on for your DD or get her headphones so your son doesn't know the tv is on.

I know it is hard and I commend you at being so open and learning more. Like pp said rf is permanent so you can always turn him back around. I would definately make sure that your son is at more of a 30 degree angle than a 45 degree angle.

HTH and goodluck!:)