The Booster Bench

[papooses]

http://www.lonsister.com/

My gut reaction is that this looks like a horrible manifestation of a unique solution for a common problem: needing to fit 3 kids in a small car -- the Radian seems 100X easier to use correctly than this.... But, would anyone else be willing to elaborate on their impression/concerns, etc?

[Jewels]

I think it looks kind of neat but how safe can it really be for the children; I don't think I would use it :confused: Was there a price on there anywhere?

I added the pictures as the link took me to the page but I had to search a little to find the pictures.

http://www.lonsister.com/images/boosterbench.gif
http://www.lonsister.com/images/boosterbenchcombo.gif
http://www.lonsister.com/images/boosterbenchmini.gif

[tumblebug]

And how in the world do they plan on installing this mega-beast? With LATCH? Like 3 kids will ever weigh under 48lbs... and you apparently don't install it with the belt, as you would need the belts for the kids.

And oh my gosh did I just realize you don't install it!? :eek: You just buckle the kids in on this huge long booster and go?

I think this is a horrific idea, say you get T-boned on one side, instead of one kid getting the impact all 3 of them do?? Makes me feel sick...

[Jewels]

What would you do if you were only transporting 1 child at any given time instead of 2-3? You would always need to have all the seats filled.

[MomToEliEm]

I don't like the idea of having only low-back boosters. The picture they provide doesn't even have headreasts so low back boosters really aren't practical for most kids whose head extends past the seat back.

How are they going to accomodate the various sizes of car seat benches. The seatbealts in cars are not a standard distance from each other.

I just don't see how this would work. I would be much happier buying a built in booster or carseat made by the car manufacturer then buying a 3rd party device not built for the car.

[chaoticoctopus]

I'm not sure how the combo model (2 boosters/1 5-pt. seat) could possibly be safe-- the 5-pt. end of the seat would be buckled down by the vehicle seat belt, but the belt would actually be restraining the entire 3-part seat and all of its occupants' weight! What if there were no children sitting in the boosters, therefore no additional seatbelts restraining the rest of the seat?!? :eek:

Did they test it with different numbers of occupants, in different combinations of seating arrangements? Does it even list the height/weight limits for the 5-pt. harnessed seat portion??

[elle7715]

Oh gosh, where do I start...
1) they say it's designed for bench seats. Bench seats often don't have headrests (at least in all positions) so backless boosters are inappropriate.
2) What happens when one kid outgrows it? You have to buy a whole other one!
3) If an adult needs to ride in the back seat, you have to take the whole thing out. Where will the kids sit then?
4) Even if it performs decently well in front impact collisions I think this thing would be a disaster in a real life crash.

[Jeanum]

The more I think about it after a quick look at the site, the more I'm inclined to agree that this product/prototype potentially raises more safety questions and problems than it purports to solve. :twocents:

[Tiffanie]

What's scarier about this beast is that there are parents out there that would use it.

[snowbird25ca]

Well, the only silver lining is that it would have to pass FMVSS standards - and I'm thinking FMVSS standards aren't even developed for something that's intended as a multi-child child restraint, so it'll probably never get on the market. :whistle:

It has potential for an ok product and potential for a really horrible product.

I think even if it was a good product though, the potential for misuse would be so high that it wouldn't be something to recommend... it would have to have the requirement of all seatbelts being secured when not in use - which all boosters should be buckled when not in use, but in this case you could be talking about much more of a risk when one child is on the booster and the other 2 positions aren't buckled...

I was also worried about lack of head support too... And then there's the whole issue that most vehicle seats don't have just straight benches anymore - most are split in some way.

It's a creative solution, but I doubt we'd ever see it make it to market unless there's a way it could meet FMVSS standards.

[bobandjess99]

Oh gosh, where do I start...
1) they say it's designed for bench seats. Bench seats often don't have headrests (at least in all positions) so backless boosters are inappropriate.
2) What happens when one kid outgrows it? You have to buy a whole other one!
3) If an adult needs to ride in the back seat, you have to take the whole thing out. Where will the kids sit then?
4) Even if it performs decently well in front impact collisions I think this thing would be a disaster in a real life crash.

Just to play devils advocate here.....
1. - in some states, the laws only cover kids through 4-5 yrs old, so these kids would still be short enough to use a backless booster AND have their heads within the seat. (although of course these kids should be harnessed, lol)
2-3. I think they could easily get around this by saying it is for families with kids very close together, stepping-stone kids, or like 1 and then 18 months later twins, etc....in situaitons where an adult isn't going to really ever use the seat (An adult hsa sat in the back seats of our van like....twice in 3 years? So that's really doable for some families..)
4 - even I can't devils advocate this one...I think it would be horrid.
LOL.

[Patriot201]

Oh gosh, where do I start...
1) they say it's designed for bench seats. Bench seats often don't have headrests (at least in all positions) so backless boosters are inappropriate.
2) What happens when one kid outgrows it? You have to buy a whole other one!
3) If an adult needs to ride in the back seat, you have to take the whole thing out. Where will the kids sit then?
4) Even if it performs decently well in front impact collisions I think this thing would be a disaster in a real life crash.

I agree with each of your four questions. Wow.

[singingpond]

Maybe for a niche market, when transporting a bunch of similar age/size kids (e.g. preschool, or some of those smaller school bus/vans, assuming they have lap/shoulder belts, of course)? I haven't taken the time to visit the site, to see if it says anything about how the thing is attached to the vehicle. Wouldn't it have to be independently attached (e.g. by LATCH) since it has to weigh more than the maximum allowed for an unattached booster (9 pounds, I think?). Is it subject to same rules and standards as single-occupant seats? Interesting idea, but it does look like it invites new categories of misuse, versus single-occupant seats. I wouldn't buy such a thing, personally, just because there is no real-world accident data with it yet -- from a selfish p.o.v., I always prefer to have other people do the beta testing, if possible... :rolleyes: .

ETA: I realized that 'preschool' is probably too vague, since a lot of people start kids in preschool at age 3 -- too young for boosters anyway. I was thinking more of the 4 and 5 y.o. group. Looking at the drawings, I guess there is also a model that accomdates 5-point harnessed seats... Guess I really should visit the site, to see how the thing attaches. Does it say anything about cost? How could it even be competitive with some of the cheaper individual seats, since it probably is produced in small quantity??

Katrin

[waterbaby]

Oh gosh. Why not launch three kids out of the car at the same time?!?! Not something we'll be investing in.

[Michi]

Not to mention, what about the weight differences of the children themselves?
If you put a heavy kid on one side it's going to have a see-saw effect and lift the other children in the air. So you would have to put the heavier child in the middle, and move the smaller/lighter children outboard...and they are the ones that need MORE protection!
GAH! This thing is awful!

[AdventureMom]

I don't even know where to start...

My biggest concern? It's bigger/heavier than an individual booster seat so it will have more force of its own in a crash, which will act against its need to stay in place.

Scary. Really scary.

[AdventureMom]

Well, the only silver lining is that it would have to pass FMVSS standards - and I'm thinking FMVSS standards aren't even developed for something that's intended as a multi-child child restraint, so it'll probably never get on the market. :whistle:

ITA. It says (italics mine): Designed to meet all required US Government safety standards. (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS 49CFR571.213))

So I don't think it's actually been tested. Now that I know that, I'm less concerned about it. I don't think it's going to pass either. Whew...!

[papooses]

Thanks all -- one of the reps posted this as an option at the carseatdata.org forum in response to someone asking for help with 3 across :thumbsdown: I simply responded that I can see an increased risk of misuse, but wanted to keep the thread relevant to REAL solutions :whistle: It's been bothering me & I have all these horific images in my mind, but they just weren't forming into coherent explanations :o (perhaps a symptom of shock, LOL) Anyway, does anyone mind if I quote some of these comments in that forum?

[AdventureMom]

Another problem? I don't think parents will go for it. With backless boosters being so cheap and easy to move/stow, why would you buy a big ol' thing like this? What if one kid needs to ride home with Grandma or go with friend? You can't take the booster out and send it with them. So in addition to being unsafe, I think it will also be unmarketable.

Sorry for the multiple posts on this item - it's just so awful that I can't get it out of my mind... :p

[UlrikeDG]

With backless boosters being so cheap and easy to move/stow, why would you buy a big ol' thing like this? What if one kid needs to ride home with Grandma or go with friend?

Because some vehicles are very difficult to fit 3 across! I could see using something like this in the 3rd row of my Ody. That bench (which has head support!) is too narrow for separate child restraints. The same was true in the 3rd row of my Pilot. Fortunately, I don't have to fit 5 kid in the back, so it's not an issue, but what if I were pregnant with TWINS? Then my choice becomes finding a way to fit 3 kids on the back bench or putting one kid in the front seat.

Obviously, you would need spare seat(s) for the times when your child rides in another vehicle, but that's not exactly a novel idea.

I'm not getting these "scary" crash dynamics that so many posters seem to be envisioning, at least not with the booster-only version. Boosters were described to me as "telephone book technology." That is, their primary purpose is simply to lift the child up so the seatbelt fits him/her properly. This product would do that. I don't see how it would be better or worse than 3 separate backless boosters in a side impact.

I also don't see how having a heavy child sitting next to a light child could cause problems, as each child would be seatbelted separately, and the armrests would help hold the seat itself in place along with the child. Only taking 1-2 children in the seat? Wouldn't you just buckle the other seatbelt(s) anyway?

It's obviously a niche product. It's obviously not the best seat for every situation (no seat is!). I don't know if the demand would be enough to be profitable. But, the concept itself isn't a bad idea, nor is it one for which I can see no practical use.

[nisi]

Don't worry, folks. I predict it'll be a cold day in heck before this bad boy sees a store shelf. That web site has been up for ages. They're still begging for investors and they don't even have a prototype (I assume, otherwise they'd have a picture of it rather than the sketches). Not to mention all the practical concerns others have mentioned here. And then it has to pass 213. Umm... yeah.


I do give the inventors kudos for trying to find a creative solution to a common problem, though.

[papooses]

Yes, I think the idea is great in theory & kinda wish it could fill this niche (we all know that fitting 3 across isn't exactly easy or fun :rolleyes:) ... my biggest worry is practicality: mostly misuse of course -- I'd like to actually help this rep realize the concerns we're all having in hopes that they just might get it to the point that it can be a safe option, but again I worry that it opens the door to even more misuse as parents could be allthemore likely to resort to FF or booster too soon if it means not having to take the time to find a better fitting "traditional" seat.

[MomToEliEm]

It would be nice if these could be a snap-on type design. Maybe if you need just one, you snap off the other 2 boosters. If you need all 3, you snap them all together. If a family needed 3 harnessed seets, they could buy the 3 harness snap-on peices and have them all in one row. If you wanted the high back booster, you could snap on 3 high back boosters together. It would be so much more feasible if there was some flexibility in the design.

[Niea]

I don't have much experience with boosters since I only have one child and she's still harnessed. But. . .

Would this thing really take up less room than 3 separate backless boosters? I can see how fitting 3 harnessed seats or high-back boosters together could be a problem, but 3 backless boosters would seem to fit almost anywhere.

[twom]

One other problem I see is that the one outboard booster does not have an arm rest on the buckle side of the seat for the belt to be routed under. So the lap belt would be routed under the outboard arm rest, but neither the lap nor the shoulder belt would be routed under anything on the buckle side, and that's obviously going to cause some problems with fit and safety.

[safeinthecar]

Not to mention that the reason most of us can't do three in a row with boosters is NOT because of seat width. I can do a three in a row in my mom's F350 using two Huskys but I can't do it with three 13 inch wide Cosco Proteks because there is only a LAPBELT in the center.

Kimberly

[Jeanum]

Don't worry, folks. I predict it'll be a cold day in heck before this bad boy sees a store shelf. That web site has been up for ages. They're still begging for investors and they don't even have a prototype (I assume, otherwise they'd have a picture of it rather than the sketches).

Now that you mentioned it, I seem to vaguely recall a spam-like post about the booster bench a year or two ago on the parents place/iVillage board trying to elicit feedback and backers. I tried to search for the thread but can't find it over there. It might pre-date the archives, or have been reported as spam and deleted by iVillage due to the TOS there. I agree it's an interesting niche concept with virtually insurmountable hurdles.

[papooses]

interesting niche concept with virtually insurmountable hurdles.
:yeahthat:

[southpawboston]

Oh gosh, where do I start...
1) they say it's designed for bench seats. Bench seats often don't have headrests (at least in all positions) so backless boosters are inappropriate.
2) What happens when one kid outgrows it? You have to buy a whole other one!
3) If an adult needs to ride in the back seat, you have to take the whole thing out. Where will the kids sit then?
4) Even if it performs decently well in front impact collisions I think this thing would be a disaster in a real life crash.

1) most rear seats are "bench" seats (except minivans/SUVs that have captians chairs and a few other exceptions). and most new cars have headrests for all three seating positions.

2) what if the intended user is a home daycare provider who always has to transport kids of the same age?

3) see #2.

4) based on what research?

wow. i'm really surprised so many people are slamming this thing. ideas have to start *somewhere*. there evidently is a need for three across, and we all know how much of a challenge it is (hence all the threads devoted to it). i wonder if the original inventor of the harnessed carseat got such negative feedback or if his idea was embraced and evolved into something great. i think it's a creative idea that could potentially fill a large need. granted, the obstacles to fruition may be large, but not necessarily insurmountable (including development of an applicable crash test standard). if the prototype doesn't seem to be the holy grail of carseat design, that's really not the point. the point is that someone out there is trying out a really interesting idea. this is how inventions happen. i guess it's just easier to pick apart something than to see the possibilities. :shrug-shoulders:

[Jeanum]

You rebel, SPB, you. :) Would you buy one if Recaro made it? ;)

[southpawboston]

Not to mention that the reason most of us can't do three in a row with boosters is NOT because of seat width. I can do a three in a row in my mom's F350 using two Huskys

lol, a ford F350? like most of us have a vehicle that large? try fitting three across with your two huskies in a "typical" car.

[southpawboston]

You rebel, SPB, you. :) Would you buy one if Recaro made it? ;)

lol... as long as it didn't come in PINK!!! ;)

[safeinthecar]

lol, a ford F350? like most of us have a vehicle that large? try fitting three across with your two huskies in a "typical" car.

Well, I can do it in my Surburban and a Lincoln Continental too, but those don't exactly qualify for small car statis either. I did do it once in BMW 5 series with a Century Smartfit V in the middle.

Oh wait, I did 2 Huskies and a 86-Y in a Nissan Xterra and a 95 Chevy Wagon.

FWIW, I couldn't even fit 1 Husky in the old Honda Accel my brother used to have. The ceiling was too low. LOL

Kimberly

[southpawboston]

FWIW, I couldn't even fit 1 Husky in the old Honda Accel my brother used to have. The ceiling was too low. LOL

Kimberly

honda or hyundai? hyundai made the excel (later called the accent). yeah, that's a tiny car.

but still, most people do have a problem fitting three across.

[UlrikeDG]

Note to Recaro: please make SPB's seats only in mauve or fuchsia. Absolutely no pink!

[UlrikeDG]

Often, it's simply a matter of finding the right combination of seats to fit 3 across, but for a daycare or carpool situation, I could see this as a good solution.

I absolutely agree that there's a huge difference between:
Fitting 3 across in the second row of a Honda Pilot vs. 3 across in the third row of the Pilot.
Fitting 3 across in a Suburban vs. 3 across in a Camry.
Fitting 3 across in a Crown Victoria vs. 3 across in a Jetta.

Not everyone who has to transport 3+ kids in a vehicle has the funds to buy a larger SUV, van or truck.

[safeinthecar]

I wasn't suggesting that people buy bigger cars to 3 across, I was trying to say that even in cars huge enough to 3 across with huge harnessed car seats, if the middle seat is a lap belt you cannot do 3 booster seats no matter how narrow they are.

Kimberly

[southpawboston]

I was trying to say that even in cars huge enough to 3 across with huge harnessed car seats, if the middle seat is a lap belt you cannot do 3 booster seats no matter how narrow they are.

i see your point. but then again, most new vehicles have lap/shoulder belts in the center. in fact i think it's already required for all passenger cars, not sure about trucks.

[Jeanum]

Not quite - Sept. 1, 2007 is the deadline for all new vehicles to be manufactured with lap/shoulder belts in all seating positions, although some models are already in compliance.

[safeinthecar]

Not quite - Sept. 1, 2007 is the deadline for all new vehicles to be manufactured with lap/shoulder belts in all seating positions, although some models are already in compliance.

It will be great if this applies to all vehicles, even those over 3000 lbs. (latch doesn't) My family tends to lean toward vehicles with really high towing capacities so almost all of our vehicles are over 3000lbs. My mom's truck is a 2007 and has 2 lap belt positions. It's sprung it's fourth tranny leak since they bought it though so it's looking like Ford is going to buy it back under the lemon law. Then my mom will get a new truck for me to play with. HEHEHEHE.

Kimberly

[Jeanum]

Yup, vehicles weighing over 8500 pounds are exempt from LATCH, although some of them might still have lower anchors or top tethers depending on the model. I'm not sure if there's a similar exemption for the upcoming lap-shoulder belt requirement. Hopefully not. Good luck to your mom with the lemon law proceedings, and may it result in a vehicle with lap-shoulder belts in all seating positions for you to play with. :)

[ThreeBeans]

Not quite - Sept. 1, 2007 is the deadline for all new vehicles to be manufactured with lap/shoulder belts in all seating positions, although some models are already in compliance.

Hey, that's good news :D

[lynsgirl]

lol, a ford F350? like most of us have a vehicle that large? try fitting three across with your two huskies in a "typical" car.

If it's the second row of my van, I can! :D But those are 3 separate seats, so maybe it doesn't count (Sienna LE8) :whistle:. We did have an F350 crew cab as our primary vehicle for a time and it has an enormous back seat. I totally can see fitting at least 2 Regents back there, plus something else. :thumbsup:

[lynsgirl]

Note to Recaro: please make SPB's seats only in mauve or fuchsia. Absolutely no pink!

:ROTFLMAO: :duck:

[skaterbabscpst]

Often, it's simply a matter of finding the right combination of seats to fit 3 across, but for a daycare or carpool situation, I could see this as a good solution.

I absolutely agree that there's a huge difference between:
Fitting 3 across in the second row of a Honda Pilot vs. 3 across in the third row of the Pilot.
Fitting 3 across in a Suburban vs. 3 across in a Camry.
Fitting 3 across in a Crown Victoria vs. 3 across in a Jetta.

Not everyone who has to transport 3+ kids in a vehicle has the funds to buy a larger SUV, van or truck.


Heck, even with a Suburban, three across is a breeze in the 2nd row - but darn near impossible in my third row. I can't even fit 2 PWs and a Radian there. Three CarGos or Sceneras might be doable, but wouldn't be of any use for me personally.
:whistle:

If it had sufficient head support and offered a harnessed option for the center (with an upper weight limit above 65 lbs) it might could be helpful.

[strollerfreak]

Heck, even with a Suburban, three across is a breeze in the 2nd row - but darn near impossible in my third row. I can't even fit 2 PWs and a Radian there. Three CarGos or Sceneras might be doable, but wouldn't be of any use for me personally.
:whistle:

If it had sufficient head support and offered a harnessed option for the center (with an upper weight limit above 65 lbs) it might could be helpful.

Agreed, totally and completely. The only workable 3 across I've been able to do in the 3rd row of my Suburban is 2 FP Futura's outboard & a Roundabout center...and even then it was definately an "iffy" install because of how I had to jam the RA in there.

That was my thought too...why not put the harnessed seat in the center position? That's where most lap-only seating positions are?

Oh, and we won't be able to afford to replace our Suburban for a LONG time, so I won't be getting anything with LATCH or center l/s belts until then, and I've got to make do with what I have. A smaller vehicle is not an option with 4 kids, and there is no point in a minivan as a) I don't like driving them (btdt and hated it the entire year and cheered and did a victory dance when I sold the thing) b) there isn't THAT much cost savings in gas mileage between that and my Suburban.

[skaterbabscpst]

I hear ya. We'll need to figure out how to replace ours very soon - we have no head rests and the boys are getting tall enough that almost all high back boosters are outgrown.

[safeinthecar]

[QUOTE=skaterbabscpst;193898]Heck, even with a Suburban, three across is a breeze in the 2nd row - but darn near impossible in my third row. I can't even fit 2 PWs and a Radian there. Three CarGos or Sceneras might be doable, but wouldn't be of any use for me personally.
:whistle:

I can do the MA or the Laptop in the center and any combination of Confidence, TB, Protek, or Intera in the 3rd Row of the 'Burban

[safeinthecar]

Agreed, totally and completely. The only workable 3 across I've been able to do in the 3rd row of my Suburban is 2 FP Futura's outboard & a Roundabout center...and even then it was definately an "iffy" install because of how I had to jam the RA in there.

That was my thought too...why not put the harnessed seat in the center position? That's where most lap-only seating positions are?

Oh, and we won't be able to afford to replace our Suburban for a LONG time, so I won't be getting anything with LATCH or center l/s belts until then, and I've got to make do with what I have. A smaller vehicle is not an option with 4 kids, and there is no point in a minivan as a) I don't like driving them (btdt and hated it the entire year and cheered and did a victory dance when I sold the thing) b) there isn't THAT much cost savings in gas mileage between that and my Suburban.

What year is your 'Burban?

My dd is 5'2" (as of yesterday) and there is still a couple of boosters she fits well in. Protek, BG, Parkway (i think yo have one of these) She is a smidge taller than the belt guides on the Confidence, but on this particular booster they allow you to forego the belt guides if the shoulder belt fits without it. You might want to look at the Combi booster (name?) It is tall enough for me and I'm 5'5". The 'burban is getting fixed right now, but when it gets back I can play around and see what other 3 across combos I can get with what I have on hand.

You could also look into a replacement seat for the "burban.

Kimberly