Techs- Do you believe you have to use the top tether if you use the lower anchors FF?

[mommyto4kiddos]

They taught us this last week. It was new to me, but other people here disagree. I want to know what others were taught. For forward facing seats.

[beebear23]

When FF or RF?

[mommyto4kiddos]

FF

[joolsplus3]

Lower
Anchors and top
Tethers for
C
Hildren.

Clever acronym, huh? However, it's not the law that they NEED the top anchors...the LATCH testing is the same as the belt... 32 inches without a top tether, 28 inches with a top tether.

[mommyto4kiddos]

So they are tested the same and preform the same? Then why do you say they must be used together?

The 32 and 28 inches is height or exactly what? Sorry if its a dumb questions.

[beebear23]

So they are tested the same and preform the same? Then why do you say they must be used together?

The 32 and 28 inches is height or exactly what? Sorry if its a dumb questions.

Head excursion.. How far forward the head goes in a crash..

[CPS_obsessed_EMT]

This is what I was taught and it is what I will follow. In fact, last week I had somebody switch from latch to seatbelt install because there wasn't a top tether for the location the seat was in.

I remember her saying in class it was because of physics. Since the anchor hold the seat down lower than the seatbelt does, it makes the top of the seat rotate too far forward w/o the top tether.

I know that seats have to be tested with latch and pass just like they do with a seatbelt, but when they test them don't they use the top tether?

[beebear23]

This is what I was taught and it is what I will follow. In fact, last week I had somebody switch from latch to seatbelt install because there wasn't a top tether for the location the seat was in.

I remember her saying in class it was because of physics. Since the anchor hold the seat down lower than the seatbelt does, it makes the top of the seat rotate too far forward w/o the top tether.

I know that seats have to be tested with latch and pass just like they do with a seatbelt, but when they test them don't they use the top tether?

That doesn't make sense.. If there were lower anchors in the seat then there should be a top tether anchor too.. Or am I just not understanding what you are saying(it's been a long day).

[CPS_obsessed_EMT]

I knew someone would probably say that :p

This was the 3 row of the vehicle. There was a top tether behind the middle of the 3rd row, but the vehicle manual said that you could only use the tether if the seat was installed in the middle position (you couldn't go from the side to the middle)
They needed the seat installed on the side so they could fit more people in the vehicle.

[UlrikeDG]

Best practice is that if there is a tether anchor available for the FF seat, it should be used, whether the seat is installed with LATCH or with the seatbelt.

99.9% of the time, a vehicle with LATCH will have top tethers as well, and therefore, the seat should be tethered. There are a few exceptions; the VW Beetle Convertible comes to mind. In those cases, it is acceptable to install the seat with Lower Anchors without tethering it.

[skaterbabscpst]

Lower
Anchors and top
Tethers for
C
Hildren.

Clever acronym, huh? However, it's not the law that they NEED the top anchors...the LATCH testing is the same as the belt... 32 inches without a top tether, 28 inches with a top tether.

Yeah that. :thumbsup:

That doesn't make sense.. If there were lower anchors in the seat then there should be a top tether anchor too.. Or am I just not understanding what you are saying(it's been a long day).

Nope, there are valid casses in which there may be lower anchors but not top tethers, for example, convertibles. They are NOT required to have top tethers, although some models do.

[scatterbunny]

No, my instructors taught us that the tether was always strongly encouraged, but it wasn't mandatory. Lower anchor installs without the top tether are technically okay, similar to a lapbelt-only install.

I can see why lots of techs are confused, though, since LATCH is a whole system.

[lovinwaves]

No, I was not taught that.

And, no you do not have to use the Top Tether when using Latch.... Would I ever not use a top tether if it is available, of course not, but the seat is safe without it.

My dad's convertible also has lower anchors but no top tether.

If the vehicle has lower anchors installed and no top tether, the person may still install the seat using just the lower anchors ;)

[papooses]

Top tether use is only required if the manual says so. Most do not. It always enhances safety, but is not usually required. Federal safety standards require they meet a 32" head excursion limit without tether, 28" with.

[starlightCPST]

We were told that for FF, if we used lower anchors, we had to use the top tether. HAD to. Mandatory.

And for RF, obviously, we didn't, unless the seat had the option. And then... we HAD to. Mandatory.

I believe the phrasing was that it was LATCH... lower anchors AND top tethers for children. If we were installing a seat w/ LATCH, we had to do it w/ lower anchors and top tethers.

[papooses]

Where did they get this? It was not a part of the updated curriculum workshop at my regional NHTSA conference & it is not stated anywhere in my course binder.... Sounds like oppinion/myth rather than curriculum.

[lovinwaves]

We were told that for FF, if we used lower anchors, we had to use the top tether. HAD to. Mandatory.

And for RF, obviously, we didn't, unless the seat had the option. And then... we HAD to. Mandatory.

I believe the phrasing was that it was LATCH... lower anchors AND top tethers for children. If we were installing a seat w/ LATCH, we had to do it w/ lower anchors and top tethers.

Not directed at you Abby, but I wonder why they said "Mandatory". Who says it's Mandatory? The seats passes codes without it, so why would it be mandatory? :confused:

Good practice...yes...but mandatory..no

[UlrikeDG]

Lovinwaves, there are a few vehicles in which the tether can interfere with other passengers and/or luggage. These are mostly SUVs, Vans and Wagons. While it's best for the child in the seat to have the tether used (when available), there are some situations where convenience or necessity might trump that. In such situations, I'd still recommend tethering the seat whenever possible (e.g., when there aren't passengers who have to climb past the seat or when not hauling larger cargo).

[mommyto4kiddos]

With the new class they taught us it wasn't an option to use the bottom with out the top. It seems weird that everyone doesnt' have the same info. We were the first new class here in ND, new setup and new book.

[CPS_obsessed_EMT]

We were told that for FF latch install, we HAD to have the top tethers, but the only thing that was even mentioned about RF tether was that "some manufacturers may allow RF tether" :rolleyes:

I don't think I am just confused, because when the instructor first said it, I WAS confused so I asked her about it. She really stressed that with FF latch install, the tether HAD to be used, whereas with a seatbelt install it was preferred but not mandatory like latch. So she said if for some reason you couldn't top tether, you had to use seatbelt.

It was like, the ONE thing that I thought I actually learned during the whole class, everything else was old news to me :cool:

My instructor was a pretty important Safe Kids person, like high up in the chain of command or something, lol. And my class was actually the first in my state to get the new curriculum. Maybe if I have time later I'll look it up in my book.

I hope that didn't come across that I'm arguing with anyone. It doesn't really make much sense to me either, and what I was taught could very well be wrong :confused: But since I'm still somewhat of a rookie yet, I'm going to stick to what I've learned and what I read in the instruction manuals, over what someone told me on the internet, kwim?
Maybe in a few yrs when I have more under my belt and I've taken a few more classes on this, I will give myself enough credit to question some of these "official rules" (which slots can be used for the shoulders, whether top tether is mandatory for latch, etc etc) but until then, I am going to go with what I learned in my official class as the absolute truth :o

[lovinwaves]

The new Curriculum only states this: "You should remind parents to use top tethers whenever possible".

[lovinwaves]

She really stressed that with FF latch install, the tether HAD to be used, whereas with a seatbelt install it was preferred but not mandatory like latch. So she said if for some reason you couldn't top tether, you had to use seatbelt.



Sometimes there are only lower anchors, and no top tether, so what she said has some grey area...

When she said "HAD to", who says?

[mommyto4kiddos]

when i say "have to" I mean the carseat class instructors said we have to, that there is no option if you use the lower anchors because it is a system that works together and must be used together.

[lovinwaves]

Ok those of you with the new Curriculum Student manuals. Go to page 245.


Look for the question: "If a child Restraint comes with a standard tether, must the tether always be used"

Answer: A CR with a tether must also meet the previously required head excursion test WITHOUT a tether. Best practice is to always use a tether if it is available for a ff'ing CR , because less head excursion means less risk of injury.

HOWEVER, installation with a safety belt alone will provide a fairly good level of protection.

So, now the question is, why didn't say they say Seatbelt AND lower anchors...why did they just say seatbelt?

My instructor also said to me that a ff'ing cr installed without a top tether using a lap shoulder belt is no more safer than using a lap only belt. He said the lap shoulder belt would not prevent any more head excursion than a lap only.... is this true?

[Defrost]

My instructor also said to me that a ff'ing cr installed without a top tether using a lap shoulder belt is no more safer than using a lap only belt. He said the lap shoulder belt would not prevent any more head excursion than a lap only.... is this true?

It seems true based on my experience. After all, that's what we do whenever we use a locking clip - we essentially make the shoulder portion of the belt "moot" and rely on the lap portion of the belt.

[starlightCPST]

It was one specific tech who was very insistent that the tethers must be used at all times, mandatory.

Of course, she also said that head excursion was basically 28 or 32 minus the childs torso... because the measurement started down by the childs butt, came up the childs shoulders, and then out. Oh, and NO seats can touch the seat in front. NONE.

One of our members told me that she knew all my instructors (whoever you are, I accidently deleted your pm, I'm sorry.) and that she thought I'd like all of them, except one. Well, at the time, I couldn't figure out the one. But, I'm thinking that this one is it. Which really surprises me, being that this one was the SAHM w/ a dd born the same month as my ds. You'd think we'd have more in common. But the more and more I think about it, the more and more misinformation I remember recieiving from her specifically.

[CRS]

I'm 99% sure I was told to use the top tether as well for a FF seat if you're using the lower anchors. Makes sense to me really, but the same could be said for the lap belt I think. Actually, now that I think about it - it might have just been that it's required by some car seat manufacturers, but perhaps not all?

[CRS]

My instructor also said to me that a ff'ing cr installed without a top tether using a lap shoulder belt is no more safer than using a lap only belt. He said the lap shoulder belt would not prevent any more head excursion than a lap only.... is this true?

I'm pretty sure that the shoulder but does add SOME additional "upper anchorage" (if you could even call it that) for a seat. Especially if the seat uses a FF lock off. That's what a lot of FF European seats rely on, the shoulder belt to anchor the top of the seat more rigidly. Of course it's still not going to do as good a job as a dedicated top tether strap (IMO) but it's the next best thing to it I think...

[joolsplus3]

It seems true based on my experience. After all, that's what we do whenever we use a locking clip - we essentially make the shoulder portion of the belt "moot" and rely on the lap portion of the belt.

I thought so, too, but no. Deborah Stewart says that a seat with a lap/shoulderbelt DOES perform better than a lapbelt alone...the shoulderbelt will lock in a crash, even with a locking clip in place, so it's better than just a lapbelt. (She mentioned it on CPSPList, and I asked her at Lifesavers).

This is of course particularly true with seats with shoulderbelt lockoffs, which mimic a top tether very effectively (so much so that top tethers aren't available in EU seats, but all seats have to be installed with lap/shoulderbelts and lockoffs...all their cars have lap/shoulderbelts for like the last 30 years, so it's no big deal)
:)

[joolsplus3]

I'm 99% sure I was told to use the top tether as well for a FF seat if you're using the lower anchors. Makes sense to me really, but the same could be said for the lap belt I think. Actually, now that I think about it - it might have just been that it's required by some car seat manufacturers, but perhaps not all?


I don't think they are even allowed to require it, since it's not law. They maybe do say you must, but there's no legal precedent for that.

[thepeach80]

If a seat comes in perfectly installed, but is not using a top tether, but has the ability I would not count it at as a correct install. We were taught though that if using LATCH ffing, you need to use the tether. For me it's a no brainer, it's there, it safer, use it! It's never been a problem at checks. We had one who refused to tether rfing based on a study she read though.

[UlrikeDG]

For a rear facing seat, with both portions of the shoulder belt going through the same, very narrow, belt path or with the shoulder belt floating free (some infant carriers installed without base), this may be true.

For a front facing seat, the two belts are "joined" by the locking clip only at the buckle. The shoulder belt then goes up into the belt path as usual. When the ELR seatbelt locks during a crash, the shoulder belt will be holding the seat back much higher than the lap belt. While this may not reduce foward movement as much as a top tether, it should provide at least some benefit.

[papooses]

I don't think they are even allowed to require it, since it's not law. They maybe do say you must, but there's no legal precedent for that.
Exactly. It's also not in the curriculum. I'd hate to see some tech turn a parent away thinking they could be liable for not tethering when the vehicle doesn't have an anchor and/or one cannot be installed @@

[Kellyr2]

Not a tech, but I also have seen this said before by other techs. That lower anchors MUST be accompanied by top tether.

[flipper68]

The other question would be: why wouldn't you use the top tether?

[UlrikeDG]

The other question would be: why wouldn't you use the top tether?

If the top tether anchor isn't available, as on the VW Beetle Convertible, which has lower anchors, but no top tether anchor.

[papooses]

Or in my Hybrid Escape -- Ford stopped making the cargo barrier & floor hooks don't/can't exist: tether anchors are on the ceiling
3 kids + 2 dogs
Over 5' 145# 11 yr old front passenger
8 yr old in tethered Husky/Regent on driver side
4 yr old FF in untethered Boulevard on passenger side
1 dog's IMMI petbuckle hooked to center anchor
1 dog's IMMI petbuckle hooked to outboard anchor
To tether the BLVD 1 dog had to be hooked around the front passenger seat leg to sit on the floor. I only did that if the other dog were buckled into the front passenger seatbelt with all 3 bigger kids in the back (Parkway behind driver / oldest center / Leila outboard)
4 kids + 2 dogs
Over 5' 145# 11 yr old front passenger
Boostered 8 yr old behind driver
FF harnessed/tethered 4 yr old center
RF infant behind passenger seat
Dogs' IMMI petbuckles hooked to outboard ancors
There's almost always an exception.

[Kecia]

My instructor also said to me that a ff'ing cr installed without a top tether using a lap shoulder belt is no more safer than using a lap only belt. He said the lap shoulder belt would not prevent any more head excursion than a lap only.... is this true?

This is not necessarily true. It really depends on the seat. Certain seats which have a ff beltpath with an open channel for the shoulder belt (such as Britax convertibles) can perform better in crash testing with 3pt belts (not tethered) than with just a lap belt and no tether.

This is a quote from Deborah Stewart of SafeRideNews:

The best option if a CR can't be tethered is to use a CR that has a
wide (tall) channel for the belt path and to install it with a
lap-shoulder belt AND lock the shoulder portion of the belt (either
with a lock-off on the CR or using the switchable retractor. The
wide channel allows the shoulder belt to go up behind the CR at an
angle and come out farther up, so when locked it gives a good amount
of upper rigidity.

[jen_nah]

I know we were taught when using the lower anchors you MUST top tether. I understand the lapbelt vs lower anchors being the same thing basically.

Would you install a ff'ing CSR in a seating position with lower anchors and not top tether it over using the seatbelt & not top tethering?

For me I would rather use the seatbelt and not top tether if I couldn't then use the lower anchors. I guess the rather be safe then sorry.

[snowbird25ca]

I didn't vote because I'm in Canada and all ff'ing car seats must be tethered here.

BUT, what I'm wondering is if this is a case of many vehicle manuals stating that a top tether must be used when using LATCH with a ff'ing restraint?

I'm still confused about the parent with a tether in the middle position but LATCH outboard in the 3rd row though. There are often tether anchors without the lower anchors, but if there are lower anchors doesn't there HAVE to be a top tether?

[joolsplus3]

I didn't vote because I'm in Canada and all ff'ing car seats must be tethered here.

BUT, what I'm wondering is if this is a case of many vehicle manuals stating that a top tether must be used when using LATCH with a ff'ing restraint?

I'm still confused about the parent with a tether in the middle position but LATCH outboard in the 3rd row though. There are often tether anchors without the lower anchors, but if there are lower anchors doesn't there HAVE to be a top tether?

Yeah, except for those couple of convertibles Ulrike mentioned, there MUST be a top tether if there's lower bars.

[papooses]

Would you install a ff'ing CSR in a seating position with lower anchors and not top tether it over using the seatbelt & not top tethering?

For me I would rather use the seatbelt and not top tether if I couldn't then use the lower anchors. I guess the rather be safe then sorry.
Promise I'm not "picking" on you, Jenny :p Just thought this is a good question ;) I personally would rather use the seatbelt + explain why to the parents, but ultimately I think whichever method is easiest for them to achieve a secure install is best.

[Alicia-N-2SafeBugs]

I was also taught that when using lower anchors that the tether must also be used--That it's a system and using only the lower anchors is only part of the system.