I won't be buying any more Volkswagens!

[Quirky]

I am so ticked off at Volkswagen I can hardly see straight....although I have liked my 1999 Passat wagon and dh's 2002 Golf a lot, I can tell you I won't be buying any more! LOUSY LOUSY LOUSY customer service when it comes to car seat safety!

Here's what happened: in 2002, when I was pregnant with my first, I took my VW to the dealership to have LATCH retrofitted. The dealer installed lower anchors, but told me at the time (incorrectly as it turns out) that top tethers could not be installed.

Well, thanks to the awesome CPS techs on this board, I recently learned that VW's technical bulletin issued in 2001 stated that a) top tethers could and should have been installed at the same time as the lower anchors and b) that VW would reimburse dealers for 2 complete LATCH retrofits in the outboard positions. So my old dealer was completely wrong and I should have gotten the top tethers back in 2002.

So now that we've moved from MD to NJ, and there's no feasible possibility of taking the car back to the old dealership to have them correct their screw-up, and now that I've gotten an estimate of roughly $700 PER anchor, VW says -- not our problem, we refuse to help you, and we won't reimburse you or the dealer for any top tether retrofits. I took it as high as I could within the company, to no avail.

They've just lost my business permanently! And given how many extremely expensive problems I've been having with my Passat lately (and it has less than 70,000 miles on it) I would recommend staying far, far away from VWs.

[southpawboston]

sorry you had such a bad CS experience. i could go on an on about bad CS at EVERY dealership i've been to, regardless of the nameplate of the car. not limited to VW!!

how much are the top anchors... just the parts? it's usually a breeze to just do it yourself if you or someone you know is comfortable weilding a wrench.

[Quirky]

unfortunately with the passat wagon, the tether points are supposed to be installed in the seat backs, requiring rebuilding the seats. that's why it's so pricey. believe me, my dh is a handy guy, and if i knew we could safely do a DIY version into the floor, i would! but that's not the approved site. :(

[DaniCPST]

Have you tried visiting a different VW dealer? Call one up and ask them if they can intall two top tethers. It couldn't hurt...if they have a TSB that says they will be reimbursed for installing LATCH/w top tethers I would think they would install them for you and then just forward their bill to VW headquarters.

[Quirky]

VW is no longer reimbursing, that's the problem. :( if the dealer had done what they were supposed to do in 2002, VW would have reimbursed for 2 tether points, but now they won't reimburse, and they won't help me out given the dealer's mess-up. basically, i pay the $2000 or i don't get top tethers, and too bad for me. :(

[lovinwaves]

How exactly far up did you go in the VW company? How many weeks/months did you spend doing this? Who did you talk to? Did you contact by phone, email, letter? Was it someone in the US, Germany, etc... Why wouldn't they follow their own bulletin? It sounds like the reimbursement should have happened in 2002 when you had these installed. After all these years it makes sense for them not to reimburse you. Maybe I am not understanding your whole story?

When you are saying $700 per anchor are you talking about the lower anchors or the top tether anchors?

And just in case you didn't know, because it is a common misunderstanding, LATCH is no safer than a seatbelt. In fact, some carseats can only install correctly with seatbelt even though a LATCH system is available They are both equally safe. There are LATCH limits to every vehicle, so depending on your child weight you may not even need the lower anchors at this point. The top tether is not required either(There may be some seats that require it though, someone please correct me if I am wrong), unless you are in Canada. .

[lovinwaves]

Have you tried visiting a different VW dealer? Call one up and ask them if they can intall two top tethers. It couldn't hurt...if they have a TSB that says they will be reimbursed for installing LATCH/w top tethers I would think they would install them for you and then just forward their bill to VW headquarters.

:yeahthat:

[mommyto4kiddos]

You do know that the lower part can't be used on a ff seat unless you have the top tether. I was suprised with that so wanted to let you know if u didn't already.

[DaniCPST]

Ok how about you call VW again...keep calling if you have to...and also write letters. Do you still have the service receipt from when they installed the lower anchors? If so make a photocopy of that to send as well. Does it state on the work order if they were supposed to install top tethers or why they didn't? I would inform VW that LATCH is a "system" and it needs the top tethers to be complete. I would show them the work order and how they didn't finish the job. I used to work at VW and believe it or not if you go to the service manager at a dealership they will do almost *anything* to keep a customer happy. Bad letters about their service department are not good and they want to avoid them at all costs. If the service manager at this particular dealership isn't making you happy go somewhere else and see if they can remedy this problem for you. Be persistent...I guarantee you can get your top tethers installed.

[lovinwaves]

You do know that the lower part can't be used on a ff seat unless you have the top tether. I was suprised with that so wanted to let you know if u didn't already.

Actually that is not true... A top tether is optional unless the Child Restraint says you must use it. Most carseats pass the FMVSS codes for FF'ing head excursion making the Top tether optional.
However, the Top tether can significantly make the seat safer, so it is best practice to use it when available.

[jen_nah]

I am there with you on VW's. I had an '03 Passat and it was in the shop for various issues almost 2 dozen times in the 18mths we owned it. I traded it in as fast as I could after the 2nd time oil started leaking all over the engine due to a oil line that kept cracking. Smoke would billow out of engine compartment. I traded it on a '05 Chevy Tahoe and in the 2 1/2yrs old I have had my Tahoe not one issue.

[Dillipop]

Actually that is not true... A top tether is optional unless the Child Restraint says you must use it. Most carseats pass the FMVSS codes for FF'ing head excursion making the Top tether optional.
However, the Top tether can significantly make the seat safer, so it is best practice to use it when available.


When using the seatbelt, the tether is optional. When using the lower bars, you must use the upper anchor. LATCh is a system- lower anchors and tethers and must be used together when installing using the lower anchors. That has always been my understanding of it, at least.

[DaniCPST]

When using the seatbelt, the tether is optional. When using the lower bars, you must use the upper anchor. LATCh is a system- lower anchors and tethers and must be used together when installing using the lower anchors. That has always been my understanding of it, at least.

I kind of view the whole tether is optional with LATCH, as a gray area. To me LATCH is a system and I tell parents to *always* use the tether with LATCH and act like it must be done...without exactly saying that. L-lower A-anchor and T-tethers for CH-children to me says that LATCH included the top tether but in many manuals it doesn't say the top tether must be used with LATCH. For example the Britax MA manual says under ff'ing LATCH installation "installation can be improved by the use of the Versa-tether". I never point out that the tether doesn't have to be used because if you have LATCH you have a top tether (except in this rare example) so why even put the thought in a parents head that they don't *have* to use it because many parents view car seats as a PITA to install already and would most likely skip that step (which can be a pain in an SUV) if they knew they could.

[Quirky]

One of the reasons I'm concerned to get the top tethers is because of the safer installation and the lower distance of head excursion, even with a seatbelt installation. I've found, for example, that I can get a much tighter FF install with my Radian with the top tether -- the belt installation may be adequate but the top tether makes it MUCH tighter.

I've taken it as high as I know how to go within VW....the manager I spoke to yesterday said my next step was to write to the president of VW. (yeah, that'll work.)

$700 per is the price for the top tethers that get installed in the seatbacks. The lower anchors are already installed in the two outboard positions.

My real problem is that the dealership screwed up 5 years ago by not doing the complete system install....and now that I've moved out of state it has no incentive to keep me happy, nor is VW stepping up to the plate to say they'll reimburse a new dealer for the old dealer's screwup. I'm trying to get hold of them but they haven't called me back. Even if they say "sure, bring the car in, we'll fix it" that would mean I'd have to drive down there, incur the expense of a hotel and food, spend however long down there it took for them to get it done (probably not just a one-day job)....

I'm going to keep trying, maybe the old dealership will reimburse the new dealership if I threaten to write negative letters.

[scatterbunny]

I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. :( VW, according to the LATCH manual, was supposed to install your top anchors at the same time as they installed your lower anchors. :( And they won't do it for free.

[lovinwaves]

One of the reasons I'm concerned to get the top tethers is because of the safer installation and the lower distance of head excursion, even with a seatbelt installation. I've found, for example, that I can get a much tighter FF install with my Radian with the top tether -- the belt installation may be adequate but the top tether makes it MUCH tighter.

Technically speaking you should have a tight and "correct" install before installing the Top Tether. As long as the seat does not move more than an inch at the beltpath you are fine (prior to tightening the top tether). I do understand that the seat feels tighter with the top tether, but using the seat without the top tether is safe...


I've taken it as high as I know how to go within VW....the manager I spoke to yesterday said my next step was to write to the president of VW. (yeah, that'll work.)

I wouldn't discount that suggestion at all. In fact writing letters to companies can be very effective. Case in Point: Our $4000 TV developed a condition/problem 30days out of warranty. The Manufacturer did not want to take care of the problem, or at least to our satisfaction. It took several phone calls, several hours, and eventually a letter to the CEO of the company in North America operations to get back what we thought we fair.

It seems you are very passionate about getting these top tethers installed, and I don't blame you. So, don't give up yet.... And understand that problems like this can happen with any Car Manufacturer, not just VW ;)

[jmm3]

I didn't think that lower anchors could be retrofitted. I thought it was only the top tether anchors that could be added after the fact. :confused: Am I wrong?

We used to have '98 or '99 Passat Wagon, and we had a top tether anchor retrofitted for free. It was on the back of the seat, and it wasn't too big of a deal. It only took a few hours, and I didn't think that they rebuilt the seat. Maybe the method has changed. We had it done in 2001 when my ds turned ff.

I loved that car, and I miss it. But, we had a lot of expensive problems with it! It was almost to the point of lemon law taking effect. It was great when it worked, but we couldn't take it anymore and got rid of it. Sorry you're having trouble too!

[lovinwaves]

I didn't think that lower anchors could be retrofitted. I thought it was only the top tether anchors that could be added after the fact. :confused: Am I wrong?



I loved that car, and I miss it. But, we had a lot of expensive problems with it! It was almost to the point of lemon law taking effect. It was great when it worked, but we couldn't take it anymore and got rid of it. Sorry you're having trouble too!

VW and some Audi's are the only ones where LATCH lower anchors can be installed ;)

So your problems weren't in the warrantied period? If so, the Lemon Law may not have applied... You can say "I think my car was a Lemon", but it would not have necessarily fallen under "the Lemon Law". I am assuming you would have pursued that if you thought that was the case. The term "lemon law" is just a nickname that has stuck, so I think it tends to get tossed around.

[mommyto4kiddos]

Actually that is not true... A top tether is optional unless the Child Restraint says you must use it. Most carseats pass the FMVSS codes for FF'ing head excursion making the Top tether optional.
However, the Top tether can significantly make the seat safer, so it is best practice to use it when available.



That is not what we were taught in our tech class a week ago. They said you MUST use the top tether if you use the lower anchors with a forward facing seat. It is a system and must always be used together. If you use the seatbelt its optional to use the top tether.

[Defrost]

My real problem is that the dealership screwed up 5 years ago by not doing the complete system install....and now that I've moved out of state it has no incentive to keep me happy, nor is VW stepping up to the plate to say they'll reimburse a new dealer for the old dealer's screwup. I'm trying to get hold of them but they haven't called me back. Even if they say "sure, bring the car in, we'll fix it" that would mean I'd have to drive down there, incur the expense of a hotel and food, spend however long down there it took for them to get it done (probably not just a one-day job)....

I'm going to keep trying, maybe the old dealership will reimburse the new dealership if I threaten to write negative letters.

I would go straight to the top of the OLD dealer - they are the ones who made the mistake in the first place. First of all, find out if they are even willing to correct their mistake - if they are willing to fix it if you bring it in, then you can "build" on that, explaining why you can't bring it to them at this point and why it took you so long to realize that they'd made the mistake.

[stevel]

the original dealer that didn't do the full install is your only real option. it's not your new dealers issue, and as of Jan 1 (I believe was the date) 2007 VW/Audi no longer will pay for the retrofits. lately, VW/Audi is leaving their dealers high and dry to deal with their own problems which is why they told you it wasn't VW's problem.


Reimbursement for KIDS program claims
Dealers: U.S., Canada
Date: January 17, 2007
The KIDS Program, a special promotion which offered customers a free retrofit for child seat tether anchors for some vehicles manufactured prior to the 2002 model year, was discontinued the end of 2006. The WIN system will accept and process claims for the retrofit reimbursement only through January 31, 2007.
The retrofit parts remain available for sale and installation to ensure customers that their child restraints may be installed with the appropriate vehicle hard-ware.
Specific questions about the retrofit reimbursement may be directed to your Regional Warranty Coordinator.

[UlrikeDG]

Best Practice is to use the tether if the anchor is available. Period. This goes for installation with lower LATCH anchors or with seatbelt. According to Best Practice, it would be a "misuse" to install a front facing seat without the tether if the vehicle has an anchor for that seating position.

However, there are a few vehicles (mostly convertibles like the VW Beetle convertible) have lower LATCH anchors but do not have a top tether. In such instances, it is fine to install the seats using LATCH without the top tether.

[UlrikeDG]

Quirky, in addition to writing the CEO of the company (and you totally should do that!), I'd also complain to both the BBB and NHTSA. The squeeky wheel really does get the grease. It sounds like you have a valid complaint. Make some noise!

[stevel]

why would you complain to the NHTSA? top teathers are not a required safety feature are they? seems to me that not even all cars, except in very recent years, even had them. so what does the NHTSA have to do with it? BBB, sure, that's what they are there for since the previous dealer didn't do what they were supposed to do.

[UlrikeDG]

Why not complain to NHTSA? Tethers are a safety feature. They are required by law now, even though they weren't before.

[stevel]

because if they weren't required by law when the car was built, then it isn't reasonable to argue that. you will get nowhere with that one. guaranteed. unless there is some law saying manufacturers are required to retrofit all past year cars???? that would be like saying a car that was built before seat belts were required by law should be retrofitted in for free. just not gonna happen. see what I mean?

[UlrikeDG]

Again, why NOT report it to NHTSA? The worst that can happen is NHTSA will say, "Sorry, we can't help you." However, I reported a car seat issue to CPSC (http://cpsc.gov/), who didn't have jurisdiction over that particular issue (I didn't realize it at the time). CPSC passed the complaint along to the manufacturer, who suddenly couldn't do enough to rectify the situation.

This isn't at all like your seatbelt analogy. In this case, the company lied to the consumer about the availability of a safety feature, which they were supposed to provide, and now they're saying they have no responsibility to fix their mistake. I disagree, and if complaining to NHTSA will provide her with the leverage she needs to make it right, more power to her!

[stevel]

good luck with that then. I'll be curious to find out the results. my money still says her only real option is to win against the dealer that didn't do the job completely to begin with.

[beeman]

Threaten to go to the media (and carry through if need be). If they know that they are going to buy a lot of neggative advertising by not helping you out, they'll be more co-operative. Besides the news stations are always looking for a juicy story. Just my :twocents: worth. It might help you out.

[Quirky]

I would go straight to the top of the OLD dealer - they are the ones who made the mistake in the first place. First of all, find out if they are even willing to correct their mistake - if they are willing to fix it if you bring it in, then you can "build" on that, explaining why you can't bring it to them at this point and why it took you so long to realize that they'd made the mistake.

Sigh. I so wish I'd figured this whole thing out last year, a) before I moved out of state and b) before VW discontinued their reimbursement program! Hindsight is 20/20....

I spoke to the service manager at the old dealership today and got zero help from him except a statement that "the parts weren't available when we did the retrofit." Which makes no sense to me, because I remember being told that the top tethers COULDN'T be retrofitted, not that the parts were on backorder or anything. Oh, and their helpful advice was to call VW. Yeah, OK, thanks. So I'm going to try to close that loop and then start writing nasty-grams to everyone concerned:

1) Old dealer service center and owner
2) VW North America
3) NHTSA/CPSC (because heck, why not, it's just a cc)
4) BBB (ditto)

Thanks for all the input! At this point, if I do end up with VW/the dealership refusing to make good, I'm seriously considering selling the car and moving on to something different if a) I can talk dh into it and b) we can find the money in our budget....after the extremely expensive repairs we've faced in the last six months, and the fact that the Blue Book value is only $5000-$7000, it seems to me that it might be worthwhile finding something more reliable that already has the full LATCH system rather than spending more money on this car.