CANNOT rear-face Tether without vehicle Manual approving????

[lovinwaves]

3 CPS Instructors informed me today that I cannot rear-face tether any approved seat UNLESS the vehicle's owner manual specifically says I can.

I am baffled??? So have we been giving the wrong information?

She said the owner's manual supersedes anything. And, that whatever I have "read" on the internet is incorrect (basically car-seat.org and all of you all).

She said she has only seen one manual where it allowed a rear-face tether, and that was to the back of the seats leg.

[arly1983]

Before I even thought of doing anything I would call Honda.

[Simplysomething]

I recall discussion about something like that when another poster took her tech classes. Was it papooses? Maybe? Or Scatterbunny? Does anyone know what I'm talking about?
I'm sure I'm not dreaming it up. lol

[Niea]

I wanted to add that she was curious why I wanted to use the rear-facing tether on my Britax's. She said the seats are fine without them, and I said I know, but they are safer with it tethered. She ask "How are the safer?" I said in side impact collisions they are better, to which she replied "but there is NO side impact crashing so how do we know that??" I didn't know how to respond to that :o

The answer is that in many European countries do side-impact collisions. Physics is universal the world over. . .doesn't matter if the test was done in the US or Germany, it's gonna come out the same, ya know? Just because these tests aren't mandated in the US doesn't make the outcomes any less valid.

[wondering1]

Neither one of my car manuals said anything about car seats. They are older cars.

[Jeanum]

Here's a blurb from the carseat.org Technical Encyclopedia entry on RF tethering, where the potential benefits in frontal, side, and rear impact crashes are specifically mentioned:

The restraint models on which the rear-facing tether is offered, however, can accommodate a child up to 33 lb rear facing, and for this usage the limit on rebound or rear-impact motion may be beneficial. Although crash experience indicates that rebound of infant-only restraints in frontal impacts does not cause serious injury, similar movement of a rear-facing restraint can also occur during a severe rear impact or offset rear impact, which can result in serious injury or death if the infant's head hits the rear door pillar of a sedan, the rear window of a pickup, or some other hard surface. As larger and heavier infants are carried rear-facing, the chance of an infant's head hitting a hard part of the vehicle is greater. Tethering a rear-facing convertible CR to the floor can reduce the risk of head and facial injuries in rear and side crashes by reducing head excursion.

[ThreeBeans]

for some reason i am extremely irked by your story :mad:

[skaterbabscpst]

This is the same stance that Canadian techs are taught. That said, honestly I'd let it go in one ear and out the other because this is NOT a Safe Kids stance or a NHTSA stance and I do not believe it's part of the new curriculum either because while I went through the old one, we were encouraged to tether every seat that had the ability to do so whenever possible.

[lovinwaves]

I asked her if it was part of the new curriculum and she said NO, that it is the way it's always been...that the vehicle owner's manual always trumps everything.....so unless the vehicle owner's manual says you can do it, you can't.

But, what owner's manual is going to say "Yes, you may place your rear-facing tether on the Flip Down Tray in your Honda Odyssey", ya know?

I am soooo confused!!!

[CDNTech]

I think that's crazy logic... vehicle manufacturer's are still trying to wrap their brain around how to properly explain to owners how to use LATCH... you think they're honestly going to start giving advice to owner's on how to tether their seat RF when only two companies allow you to do that?

I also agree that the laws of physics do not change no matter what country you're in.

I understand how you feel though... it was like banging my head against a brick wall in the first class I took.

The class I took this week was amazing... it was nice to get probably the only instructor in Canada that totally agreed with RF tethering.

[scatterbunny]

Ask the instructors if they have a copy of the 2007 LATCH manual.

Chapter 5, page 53, says this:

Tethering a Rear-Facing CR

The concept of tethering a rear-facing child restraint is fairly new in the U.S. and Canada. It has been used in Sweden and Australia/New Zealand for many years.

A few U.S.-made child restraint models today, almost all Britax, are designed for a rear-facing tether.

Also this, same page:

The benefit of a rear-facing tether is primarily for stabilizing the seat. In a crash, its effect is not likely to be as dramatic as a tether used on a forward-facing CR. Therefore, this type of installation is not part of the federal CR standard.

It goes on to say:

Benefits of the two methods:

Tethering the CR to the rear of the vehicle will reduce forward motion of the restraint during impact. This is more convenient to do with a V-shaped tether strap than a single strap routed directly over the child's head. Recent research has shown that this method can reduce forces acting on the child in a rear-end or frontal crash better than the Swedish method.

Tethering toward the front of the vehicle helps to creat a tight installation and to adjust the recline angle. It may increase side-to-side stability and would limit rebound (toward the back) in a frontal impact and rearward rotation in a rear impact.

On the subject of vehicle owner's manuals not "allowing" RF tethering, same chapter, page 54:

Finding an anchor for a rear-facing restraint

Vehicle owner's manuals generally do not provide information about how to tether rear-facing CRs in their vehicles because this method is not included in the federal standard. A rear-facing CR tethered toward the rear of the vehicle uses the same anchor as a forward-facing CR. However, most of the CRs designed for rear-tether use in the U.S. are tethered under the seat ahead. Finding an anchor location there can be more complicated.

Check the instructions of the child restraints that use this tethering method for recommended anchors. Britax allows use of various parts of the under-seat structure to be used to "create an anchor point." Safeline Kids required the use of anchor points designated by the vehicle manufacturer.

For a rear-facing CR to be tethered under the seat ahead, the anchor is almost always very different from those for forward-facing CRs. In a few vehicles (e.g., Ford Windstar, Expedition), there is an anchor point or anchor hardware on the underside of the front passenger seat frame.

It goes on to give Britax-specific suggestions, but let your instructor read it all and then maybe throw in the line about physics being the same regardless of the country you're in, so testing done in Sweden is still relevant here. ;)

[DaniCPST]

In my tech class we were definitely taught to rf tether with Britax seats and we were not instructed to read the vehicle manual to make sure it was okay. We were shown how to find an appropriate spot and how to use the D-ring but that is it. I would NOT remove your rf'ing tethers...I would compile a nice letter (e-mail) with your facts and encourage these techs to educate themselves better so they don't send kids out of their checks less safe by undoing a rf'ing tether.

[papooses]

I had a similar situation during my training -- they actually wanted written approval. THAT would never happen. However! :) They've changed their advice on this issue: during the CPST update workshop in the Eastern Regional conference that I just returned from they encouraged RF tethering when allowed by the *carseat* manufacturer + when there is a nonmovable part of the vehicle to secure it to as per the carseat manual ... meaning, towards the front of the vehicle + to a vehicle seat leg or bar like the Swedish method (not to the same seat the carseat is installed on, not up towards the roof or toward the rear of the vehicle like the Australian method). Basically, the advice you recieved goes against curriculum & I suggest you ask these instructors where they find this in the curriculum -- they won't find it in the current curriculum & my state coordinator told me at the time that it wasn't in the old curriculum either, but if they keep urging you on this, I'd inform your state coordinator (s/he may simply add it to the list of issues to review during meeting). In fact, at a recent Lifesavers conference, although not 2007, there was a video showing that carseat which can be & are tethered RF result in less force upon the dummy's neck. I'm awaiting a file of this video from Charles Hirata who I believe won 2 awards at the 2007 Lifesavers.

[JaRylan]

This is the same stance that Canadian techs are taught. That said, honestly I'd let it go in one ear and out the other because this is NOT a Safe Kids stance or a NHTSA stance and I do not believe it's part of the new curriculum either because while I went through the old one, we were encouraged to tether every seat that had the ability to do so whenever possible.

Any time i asked about rf tethering in my class (Canada) the techs responded that rf tethering was a just a different way to "ride out the crash". Then at the check that we had last Friday there was a lady who came in with a MA rf but not tethered and again the same explanation was given. They did ask me if I knew where to tether the seat (I knew *what* to say but not *how* to find one and tether it with confidence). I recommended that she call Britax and it was on the tip of my tongue to suggest this site but with my instructor sitting there I didn't. Turns out it was actually a new poster on here who had pm'd me a few days before, but we didn't realize who each other was until we got back on the internet, lol.

[lovemyfamily]

It really doesn't even make sense. So many vehicles have tethers anchor points behind the drivers and passenger seats, I have a 2001 GMC Yukon XL that has one at the base of the drivers seat, for a 2nd row RF restraint. I am almost positive my DH's 1999 Dodge Ram has one as well. If the manufacturers are putting them in the vehicles, why wouldn't it be the right thing to do?

[lovinwaves]

It really doesn't even make sense. So many vehicles have tethers anchor points behind the drivers and passenger seats, I have a 2001 GMC Yukon XL that has one at the base of the drivers seat, for a 2nd row RF restraint. I am almost positive my DH's 1999 Dodge Ram has one as well. If the manufacturers are putting them in the vehicles, why wouldn't it be the right thing to do?

She (the instructor) is saying to NOT use the rear-facing tether on the vehicle UNLESS the vehicle's owner manual says you can. So in your GMC Yukon does it say somewhere in your owner's manual you can tether a rear-facing seat there?

[papooses]

See, mine were saying not even to use approved/designated tether anchor points unless the vehicle manufacturer specifically stated that it was for RF as well as FF :rolleyes: Some newer vehicles like the Ford Edge are not including acceptable RF tether anchorage locations: nothing to wrap the D-ring around & I couldn't find the kind of tether hook that's in my Freestar *SIGH*

[lovemyfamily]

She (the instructor) is saying to NOT use the rear-facing tether on the vehicle UNLESS the vehicle's owner manual says you can. So in your GMC Yukon does it say somewhere in your owner's manual you can tether a rear-facing seat there?

I am stepping out to get the manual now. BRB to post an answer to your question.

[lovemyfamily]

See, mine were saying not even to use approved/designated tether anchor points unless the vehicle manufacturer specifically stated that it was for RF as well as FF :rolleyes: Some newer vehicles like the Ford Edge are not including acceptable RF tether anchorage locations: nothing to wrap the D-ring around & I couldn't find the kind of tether hook that's in my Freestar *SIGH*

How in the world would it be for forward facing if it is at the base of the drivers or passenger seats? That is wacko!

[lovinwaves]

I am stepping out to get the manual now. BRB to post an answer to your question.

Ok, cool thanks!! :thanx!:

[bp2002]

I know that in a chevy extended cab pick up there is a tether spot on the back of the front passanger seat. The front passanger seat has latch as well (2nd latch spot is the middle of the rear seat) Im guessing because its an extended cab truck they figured you might need the front seat? the airbag has an off switch right on the dash.. Ive used that tether spot (on the base of the front seat) w/ rearfacing seats.. I didnt see any problem with that. ..

[lovemyfamily]

I know that in a chevy extended cab pick up there is a tether spot on the back of the front passanger seat. The front passanger seat has latch as well (2nd latch spot is the middle of the rear seat) Im guessing because its an extended cab truck they figured you might need the front seat? the airbag has an off switch right on the dash.. Ive used that tether spot (on the base of the front seat) w/ rearfacing seats.. I didnt see any problem with that. ..

I can see that, for extended cab pickups, which DH's is. But I just went out and looked at it, another poster was asking about tether anchors in a PM to me, it is a 1999 Dodge Ram that my DH has and the manual says something to the effect of, some restraints have top straps and your vehicle is equipped with anchors for the top straps. I knew we had used them with RF seats, so I dug around with a flashlight and got the best photo I could. Funny thing, it has to be for a RF seat in the back seat as there is one on the both base of the back of the drivers seat and passenger seat.
Here is a picture:
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b7d835b3127cce856d0ac78d9100000045118AZuGbds3Ytc

[lovemyfamily]

She (the instructor) is saying to NOT use the rear-facing tether on the vehicle UNLESS the vehicle's owner manual says you can. So in your GMC Yukon does it say somewhere in your owner's manual you can tether a rear-facing seat there?

Ok back. No, the manual does not specifically say to use the tether anchors, there is one on both the drivers and passenger sides, but it does not say not to, for RF seats. It DOES mention a top strap and refers you to the carseat manual for how to use it. But briefly it explains it, saying to actually attach it first then tighten the restraint. It DOES say that if your carseat has a top strap, to use it.
Here is a picture of the one on the drivers side of my vehicle. I did not get a photo of the one on the passenger side, as the seat behind it is folded flat, but it felt the same, mind you I was out there with a flashlight. This is at the base, toward the right side, of the drivers seat, in the non-movable part of the seat, that is bolted to the floor.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b7d835b3127cce856df6358d1d00000045118AZuGbds3Ytc

[papooses]

How in the world would it be for forward facing if it is at the base of the drivers or passenger seats? That is wacko!
It's under the front passenger seat -- minivans are often used for transporting preschool aged kids or Special Needs (Even Start, etc.) so since we prefer the oldest harnessed child in front when all backseats are full it makes sense to have the top tether anchor (also has automatic sensor airbag shutoff for certain weights).

[lovemyfamily]

It's under the front passenger seat -- minivans are often used for transporting preschool aged kids or Special Needs (Even Start, etc.) so since we prefer the oldest harnessed child in front when all backseats are full it makes sense to have the top tether anchor (also has automatic sensor airbag shutoff for certain weights).

I understand. I was talking about the one that is under the drivers seat in my DH's truck. The techs that are telling people not to use it for RF seats, what else is it for? So Johnny can be in his carseat while he is driving?

[papooses]

Hah! Yeah :rolleyes: :whistle:

[MagnificentMama]

*sigh* just as an aside-

It's :mad: like this that makes techs sound so idiotic to parents. It seriously depends on the weather, day, time, and current mood of a random tech to give advice to a parent. We are taught (and I was taught here that you ALWAYS tether a seat if it allows for a RFing tether) but then you go 15 miles away to another checkpoint and who knows what that tech is going to say because chances are they've never seen a Britax nor were they taught it in class.

I don't have any specific advice because I sat in a class that actually said that seats "may" expire after 6 years but it's "alright" to use them for 10. :rolleyes: ohhh and the kicker was that this guy was arguing with me that my 4 year old needed to be out of the Regent because you can't use the tehers past 48 lbs, yet it specifcally states in the manual to top tether past 50. I guess car manual trumps seat manual? :mad: Pppssshhh I dont' think so!

I just wish we could have some uniformity. I know they revamped the program and I know seats are constantly changing, but half the time i feel like a total idiot talking to parents b/c i know they're going to show up for a check by the police department (since i can't do installs at my hospital) and get totally different advice.

Sorry... i really didn't mean to steal your thread. I'm just tired of hearing all this conflicting info and i'm a very well educated car seat parent. I can't imagine what it's like listning to this information and being a semi "clueless" parent YK?

[thepeach80]

ITA, w/ pp. We had 27 people in my class when I took my CPST course, I've had to hook up rfing tethers for at least 4 of them (and those are just the ones I happened to see) and we specifically went over it in class! Our instructors did talk about rfing tethering and how it can be done on Britax and Radian (and we had those seats available in class) and I'm sure most don't get it. I keep hoping the new requirements for cert will help 'weed' some people out, but then I realized you only had to attend our annual update (state) every 2 yrs and that got you all your CEUs so I don't forsee much changing as most CPSTs here are doing it for work.

We did have one mom come in though who did not want her seat tethered after reading some study on it though. :confused:

[CDNTech]

I understand. I was talking about the one that is under the drivers seat in my DH's truck. The techs that are telling people not to use it for RF seats, what else is it for? So Johnny can be in his carseat while he is driving?

What I have been told is that they make standard parts for both the driver's and passenger's seat... this is why you get a tether anchor on a driver's seat when it seems like no possible way could you use it.

I still think it makes for a fantastic simple RF tether point. :D

[lovemyfamily]

What I have been told is that they make standard parts for both the driver's and passenger's seat... this is why you get a tether anchor on a driver's seat when it seems like no possible way could you use it.

I still think it makes for a fantastic simple RF tether point. :D


That is what I am thinking too. If you get a tech who is against the RF tethering. AND especially if the vehicle manual says to NOT use it. The hook IS however, on the opposite side of the seat, so the part isn't really standard for both driver and passenger. The anchor point is to the right side of the piece on the drivers side and to the left side of the piece on the passenger. It just proves to me that they want you to use the tether, they meaning the auto makers.
If I ever encountered, hopefully won't have to since I am going to take my class this fall, a tech who told me not to tether RF, I would do it anyway, actually probably ask for another tech.

[amy919]

Who were these 3 said CPS instructors? Were they beaten over the head with a rock or just completely brain dead?

Since the laws of physics, say that RF tethering reduces head excursion, that trumps whatever some moron has to say, IMO.

Sorry - I'll continue to go with the irrefutable laws of physics over stupid, misinformed (in my opinion) people.

Amy

[Momto2whosews]

I was actually complimented by one of my instructors for my RF, tethered MA. I also remember the slide (old curriculum) that said "Currently only Britax seats can be tethered RF."

At a check another one of my instructors was overseeing me and she watched me RF tether two Britaxs.

I don't remember anything being said about the vehicle manual. Nor do I remember that the veh. manual trumps everything. I guess I would go that way if the veh. manual specifically forbid something, but not if it simply isn't mentioned.

[DaniCPST]

[QUOTE=lovemyfamily;157084]The hook IS however, on the opposite side of the seat, so the part isn't really standard for both driver and passenger. The anchor point is to the right side of the piece on the drivers side and to the left side of the piece on the passenger. It just proves to me that they want you to use the tether, they meaning the auto makers.QUOTE]
It is called standardization and is done in almost all manufacturing plants. Why make two different parts when you can use the same one universally? That's why in many cars if you don't have an option, like lets say memory seats, the wiring and everything is still there you just don't have the button for it. In your case it is probably the same thing, even though they are on different sides of each seat they are both on the outside of the seat. So it probably has something to do with being a part that has to be used on the outside leg or something of front seats.:rolleyes:
On a side note I am kind of confused. You said the manual doesn't say anything about them being tethers, is that correct? I am just wondering how you *know* they are tethers if you manual doesn't mention them? I might just be confused though since I think you have been talking about two different vehicles. :o

[skaterbabscpst]

I was actually complimented by one of my instructors for my RF, tethered MA. I also remember the slide (old curriculum) that said "Currently only Britax seats can be tethered RF."

At a check another one of my instructors was overseeing me and she watched me RF tether two Britaxs.

When I took my class it was a similar situation. When we went out to examine the different belt types in different cars, they actually interupted the "lesson" and explained what the class was seeing because none of them had ever seen a RF tether before.

[scatterbunny]

I guess I would go that way if the veh. manual specifically forbid something, but not if it simply isn't mentioned.


I totally agree. If the carseat manual says to do something and the vehicle manual doesn't prohibit it, I'm going to do it.

[papooses]

Ditto: if one manual says to do something & the other does not forbid it, I'd go ahead & do it -- for my own kid ... for other families, I'll simply educate the parents on the pros/cons of doing so or not doing so & let them make the final decision. In situations that are new to me, I do call manufacturer reps because even if they can't answer the question, then at least I've covered my butt for liability :twocents:

[joolsplus3]

I think she was remembering a blurb in the older manuals for some of the Britaxes that said use 'an approved anchor point'... that wording has, I believe, been removed, and if you could find an old manual and a new manual, it would be easy to re-educate her on the issue. No car manuals say anything about RF tethering, and they don't have to, the forces are literally tiny, it's a complete non-issue from a crash-force perspective. Invite her to join www.groups.yahoo.com (http://www.groups.yahoo.com) CPSPList and come clarify the situation with NHTSA reps and crash experts from the auto industry who post there.
:thumbsup:

[Avery'sMama]

We talked about it but did not have a radian or britax to practice with or even see installed. I brought in my D-ring from my boulevard and they held it up, talked about how to do it, but it was never practiced. I am sure that no one else I took my class with (except my friend who was there with her boulevard) would have any idea how to top tether rear facing.

[snowbird25ca]

This is the same stance that Canadian techs are taught. That said, honestly I'd let it go in one ear and out the other because this is NOT a Safe Kids stance or a NHTSA stance and I do not believe it's part of the new curriculum either because while I went through the old one, we were encouraged to tether every seat that had the ability to do so whenever possible.

I was in Jen's class too, and our instructor highly encouraged rf tethering when a car seat manufacturer approved it. She also mentioned that there seemed to be a difference between what area of CAnada you lived in as to if it was recommended. She mentioned that not all provinces are doing the SJA training as much, and that's where you tend to find the differences. We went over it in our class - or should I say Jen demonstrated to the others. ;)

[cdncasper]

When I did my course in MB the instructor told me that we are not suppose to tether RF because TC says not to. BUT whenever I see a Britax or Radian RF I do tell the parents about tethering RF and encourage it. But than again I think TC is basically full of poop, same with MB carseat laws.

[snowbird25ca]

When I did my course in MB the instructor told me that we are not suppose to tether RF because TC says not to. BUT whenever I see a Britax or Radian RF I do tell the parents about tethering RF and encourage it. But than again I think TC is basically full of poop, same with MB carseat laws.

Hmmm, interesting. Our instructor said there was a debate going on. She was all for it though - and she's been in touch with TC a lot... maybe TC is totally full of poop if they're telling different people different things. :p

[Kellyr2]

Okay, I'm confused. Does your manual specifically say that those ARE indeed tether anchor points? I've never seen any that look anything like that, and since they're nothing like FF tether anchors I've ever seen, without seeing the manual, my guess would be that it's just a hole that happens to be in a part under the seat. Which would make an excellent tethering position for sure, but I would have never thought it was designed as an anchor.

[papooses]

Yes, my Ford manual states that this is a top tether anchor -- it just doesn't specify FF only vs. FF and/or RF

[Loves2sing]

I am so glad to see those pics of the Dogde Ram! I hope they haven't changed that! We are going to be picking up our new truck on Friday, and I hadn't yet had the chance to find a place to tether rfing! So if they have those anchors, I wouldn't even need the d-ring, correct? I will bring it anyway, just in case.

[CDNTech]

I am so glad to see those pics of the Dogde Ram! I hope they haven't changed that! We are going to be picking up our new truck on Friday, and I hadn't yet had the chance to find a place to tether rfing! So if they have those anchors, I wouldn't even need the d-ring, correct? I will bring it anyway, just in case.

Correct, if you have tether anchor points you do not need to use the d-ring. It's only to be used if you don't have a suitable tether anchor point for RFing.

[CRS]

My trainers totally encouraged rear-facing tethering toward the front of the vehicle (britax's, radians etc) and NEVER said it was a bad thing and/or that you shouldn't do it (unless it's a seat that isn't designed to, of course). I wouldn't worry about it!