My pediatrician still isn't recommending extended RF

[chloespurple]

We went for Karli's 15 month check up on Mon. The Dr. & I were going over all the normal stuff & when she asked about Karli's seat I told her she is still RF-ing.

(Background)
At Karli's 12 month check up, the Dr. looked at me like I had 2 heads when I told her I planned on keeping Karli RF. She questioned the safety of her legs, etc. I told her about this site but forgot it was ".org" instead of ".com", so I am thinking she never found it.

This time when I told her still RF-ing, she smiled and didn't give me such a hard time & said that was fine. But she then went on to tell me she asked all of the Dr.s at the practice & NONE of them have heard/nor recommend extender RF.

I told her that even the AAP (her fellow colleagues) recommends it & it is on the web page. So maybe she will do some more research and spread the word:shrug-shoulders:.

Don't get me wrong she is an AWESOME Dr., I just wish they were better informed on car seat safety since most parents aren't totally obsessed with it like I am:o .

By the way, I have been thinking alot about it & I would love :love: to take the class and learn more & become certified. But there weren't any classes offered near me.

[papooses]

In the carseats section of my website is a link to the actual AAP Policy Statement for Peds advizing parents -- if I were you, I'd print it, highlight the relevant section & mail to the facility: CC'ing a copy to each & every doctor there :whistle: :cool:

[mamisan]

I don't know if it is because my dd is small and has hypotonia or what but at her 12 month appointment our ped looked at me like I might get offended and said he thought I really should keep her rear facing. I told him that we already planned to do that and he looked relieved.

[mamato2]

Mine said, 'It's a parental choice. Most parents can't wait to turn their kids around.' :mad: I only brought it up with her because the well check info sheet I was given seemed to say that after 12 m and 20 lbs babies must/should be turned around. I was suggesting that the info could be better presented and include the fact that longer is better (i.e. limit of seat).
Grrrr,
C.

[rlsadc]

Most of the older doctors have a hard time keeping up with the AAP and some of the changes they make. Not all of them agree with all of the AAP's recomendations...and some of them choose to not ignore, but not actively educate themselves on all of the AAP's reccomendations...

i really wish that extended RFing was one that all of them would push (not to mention extended harnessing)

[Knittingfor4]

Okay, please forgive my ignorance cause I haven't been to a ped in years. But why do they ask about carseats? And why would parents ask the ped about carseats? I'm just confused. Medical drs are trained in artificial methods of curing disease and injury. I would never have asked my ped about BFing or carseats or alot of other things. If I wanted help with carseats I went to the local expensive baby boutique where the employees catch you at the door to direct you and they have alot of info about their products. Now I just go ask the techs. If I want to know about other stuff I call the appropriate person, IBCLC, Chiro, consult a book, whatever. I would never ask a ped anything that didn't have to do with sickness. Am I just rare? I thought that was normal, my friends do the same thing. Does mainstream America just think the pedi is a one stop for everything one needs to know from birth-18?

[Ahzryn]

Does mainstream America just think the pedi is a one stop for everything one needs to know from birth-18?

Yup. Even worse, they consider peds the authority on the subject. You have no idea how many parents say "well my ped said turn them so I have to turn them" and leave with their kids that way. I, as a certified technician, have way less authority/credibility in their minds than a pediatrician, so me saying that it is best practice to extended rf, or downright DANGEROUS for them to ff their big 9 mo old means jack squat.

[Paperdragon]

:twocents: Peds also advise on other safety issues. Like infants sleeping on their backs to decrease risk of SIDS, etc. Car seats are a matter of safety and the AAP is their governing body. So if the AAP makes a recemmendation, I think they should be prepared advise patens accordingly. At the very least direct them to a website like this one or give them the number of the local car seat techs. No, peds can't be experts in car seats, but as it is a matter of safety, they should know the reccomendations of the AAP and be prepared with who they can refer families to if they have questions.:twocents:

[mommyoftwoboys]

Okay, please forgive my ignorance cause I haven't been to a ped in years. But why do they ask about carseats? And why would parents ask the ped about carseats? I'm just confused. Medical drs are trained in artificial methods of curing disease and injury. I would never have asked my ped about BFing or carseats or alot of other things. If I wanted help with carseats I went to the local expensive baby boutique where the employees catch you at the door to direct you and they have alot of info about their products. Now I just go ask the techs. If I want to know about other stuff I call the appropriate person, IBCLC, Chiro, consult a book, whatever. I would never ask a ped anything that didn't have to do with sickness. Am I just rare? I thought that was normal, my friends do the same thing. Does mainstream America just think the pedi is a one stop for everything one needs to know from birth-18?


My kids drs office now, (which we have switched several times recently) asks about car seats. They have a car seat program where you can get your seat installed or an inspection done there. The first visit I had there, she asked me do I have a car seat. I proudly said yes, I have a Regent for Jordan and Marathon for Konnor, she replied you have done research havent you. LoL I of course replied proudly, yes I found a great website with LOTS of information on car seats.
She seemed impressed. But I think its awesome when Drs say something because most parents dont consult other areas for information, in fact in most cases, other than school many parents only consult a dr for information period. A doctor would also have more influence because they are a medical health professional.

[Laurenc0101]

Mine said, 'It's a parental choice. Most parents can't wait to turn their kids around.' :mad: I only brought it up with her because the well check info sheet I was given seemed to say that after 12 m and 20 lbs babies must/should be turned around. I was suggesting that the info could be better presented and include the fact that longer is better (i.e. limit of seat).
Grrrr,
C.

I got one of those papers too at Brayden's 12 month visit. His ped told me it was okay to turn him and I just politely said, "We are going to continue rear-facing to the limits of his seat." She just smiled and moved on. I really do wish that they would give better information. At least let parents know that there are other recommendations out there and that children don't have to FF at one year and 20lbs.

[Knittingfor4]

A doctor would also have more influence because they are a medical health professional.

Well I guess I'm just crazy cause I view anything said by someone with MD behind their name with great concern! I'm no hippie or anything, but I think the western med profession is nuts and just hasn't got a clue on most things. I hate that drs advise on sleeping positions, car seats, breastfeeding. They do not recieve any education about those subjects whatsoever! My pedi actually told me I was putting ds at rist by co-sleeping then wanted to inject him w/vaccines :confused: I'm thinking, whoa buddy, who's the risk taker here! Yikes! I don't remember being asked about carseats other than to check the box on the questionaire saying I have one installed in the car. That's it. Crazy! It makes no sense. You wouldn't see a cardiologist about migranes? Why do parents think peds know about carseats and other stuff? I didn't even make it 1yr so I never got a paper telling me to turn him around.

[catfeet]

One of the moms over on Babycenter had this problem with her ped too. She made up a beautiful 3 page handout for him and is giving it out freely to folks who ask for it to give to their ped's. It's got all the basic good advice, ERF pics, website addys etc.

HTH,
Ann

[Simplysomething]

Am I just rare? I thought that was normal, my friends do the same thing. Does mainstream America just think the pedi is a one stop for everything one needs to know from birth-18?

Not exactly. But for many people who else do they know to ask? Not everyone knows that there are people who are devoted to child passenger safety, breastfeeding or anything else.

I assume you've been online for a good long while. Even if you don't have people in your offline life who do such things, surely you've been exposed to them online. I find this whole "I must be crazy/weird/different" line a bit disingenious. Good for you for being more educated about alternative things, but I don't buy the "oh my, people really think that" line.

[littleangelfire]

From what I gather, lots of places actually have policies in place now that pediatricians are supposed to advise patients on car seats. I realize lots of us here do our own research and work hard to do what's best for our kids, but remember that there's lots and LOTS of people who don't. And I see a lot of it at the ped's office. It just so happens that my son's ped's office is in a not so hot urban area. He's an awesome doc (goes to our church and he was my ped when I was a baby!) and wants to be in an area where he's really needed. He stays pretty on top of things, but he's on the board of directors for our children's hospital, so that may be why. Safety and health are completely entertwined subjects, which is why peds and adult docs and hospitals tackle subjects like car seats and breastfeeding. I mean - it's the law in manyplaces (all?) that newborns must be walked down to the car and checked that they have appropriate seats before they're allowed to leave the hospital or the hospital will give them one.

Some of the parents I see come into the peds office are just completely ignorant of what's safe and what's not. Most of them think that formula is actually better for their babies! If they breastfeed, they think you're only supposed to do it for a few months! Many have babies in carriers they're too big for, or have likely already turned around their babies ff before 12 months/20lbs., so, in an effort to prevent these kinds of things, peds talk to parents about them. Also, just a side: breastfeeding is really very much a pediatrician/health issue. I'm a fierce advocate of nursing until baby decides to wean (usually at 16-24 months) but there can be issues, like anything else. When my son was having constant diahrrhea (sp?) I spoke to his pediatrician and that's how we figured out I needed to cut dairy from my diet for a while. Also, in preemies, like my son, it's crucial to make sure they're being fed on demand and gaining enough weight. So that's why it is a doc issue, at least in part, and most docs do seem to keep up on bf facts. And car seats are the ultimate safety/health topic bc use or misuse of them can cause the worse 'disease' imaginable - death!

Anyways, just thought I'd share from the docs side. And when I recently realized my 2.5 year old was 38lbs. 39", I asked him about car seats, and he is up on information. I asked him if I should buy a booster or get him one of the few seats on the market that will harness longer, and he said to get one that will harness longer. He actually said something about some places even considering changing laws to require harnessing longer, so I'd be safer to get a seat that would do that. So the knowledge really depends upon the doc.

Most docs don't push extended rf b/c either they're not up on info or I would guess b/c they realize many parents (especially the ones I see at our office) wouldn't go for it. I've heard other members of the board say something similar, like, it's for the parents' benefit that babies get turned ff, we want to see them. It's not the babies that are complaining about it! So docs push the bare minimum knowing many people will respect what an actual law. When you use the word 'extended' rf, it sounds so optional to many, like, it's just not that big a deal and since they don't know better, they wont'. Education would be better, but they can only do so much.

[Melizerd]

My pedi always asks about Gabe's car seat as well and if we are using it properly. She's a GP though and not just a pedi. She is informed about extended RFing. I love her to death. I know she's the exeption though.

She changed all her hand outs to include information on extended RFing a year or two ago she said.

[papooses]

IMO -- they should simply ask what kind of seat the child is using & refer parents to local CPSTs ... or employ us!

[Erika Ruth]

IMO -- they should simply ask what kind of seat the child is using & refer parents to local CPSTs ... or employ us!

My Doctor just asks at every well child visit what type of carseat the child is in. I guess I have always answered "correctly" as I haven't gone further than that.

Erika

[Knittingfor4]

Littleanglefire: I totally get your points. They are intertwined issues. However, pedis do not have the education to provide proper info. IMO all pedis should be CPSTs and CLCs and more. But they are not. Statistically speaking too many are recommending formula at 6m, crying it out, seperate rooms, forward facing at 1yr. These have all been proven to be harmful/dangerous but they don't know or keep up. That's why, based on the current system, I think you see a "specialist" in whatever area you need help in. Just like you'd go to a neurologist not a cardiologist for migranes, parents should see appropriate pros with education in that field for issues/questions about all those things you mentioned. It's great when parents find an awesome pedi who's up to date and knows what he's talking about, but the majority do not. And my exposure to info is irrelevant. Again, you would go to college or vocational training for a career right. But being a mom is far more important and complex, there's no official training so one should read everything they can get their hands on. And internet has nothing to do with it, most of my knowledge came pre-internet, through books and personal contact with moms, doulas, lactation consultants and midwives. It's about personal accountablilty, not means.

[rlsadc]

See its funny. I have never been asked about my seat at the Dr's office. They do have an inforation page..but thats the extent of carseats.

[ThreeBeans]

Okay, please forgive my ignorance cause I haven't been to a ped in years. But why do they ask about carseats? And why would parents ask the ped about carseats? I'm just confused. Medical drs are trained in artificial methods of curing disease and injury. I would never have asked my ped about BFing or carseats or alot of other things. If I wanted help with carseats I went to the local expensive baby boutique where the employees catch you at the door to direct you and they have alot of info about their products. Now I just go ask the techs. If I want to know about other stuff I call the appropriate person, IBCLC, Chiro, consult a book, whatever. I would never ask a ped anything that didn't have to do with sickness. Am I just rare? I thought that was normal, my friends do the same thing. Does mainstream America just think the pedi is a one stop for everything one needs to know from birth-18?



It's completely good and RIGHT for peds to ask about things like carseats. Peds DO care about kids. THey don't want kids dying from preventable injuries. Covering things like, "do you wear a helmet, do you ride in a carseat" is part of the ped's job.

[Momto2whosews]

I would love to have a form letter to send to all the peds in my practice. I like the idea of including brochures and the AAP statement with highlighted sections too. I think they need it and I'd love to send it to each and every one of them.

Our primary care ped. never actually mentions it, but our former one did (same practice) and the nurse practicioner I've seen told me "we're just happy when they make it to 9 months rear-facing" :jaw: And she was pg at the time - I only hope she learns a thing or two now that she's a mother. Or maybe she won't, in which case I feel sorry for her child.

[scatterbunny]

Okay, please forgive my ignorance cause I haven't been to a ped in years. But why do they ask about carseats? And why would parents ask the ped about carseats? I'm just confused. Medical drs are trained in artificial methods of curing disease and injury. I would never have asked my ped about BFing or carseats or alot of other things. If I wanted help with carseats I went to the local expensive baby boutique where the employees catch you at the door to direct you and they have alot of info about their products. Now I just go ask the techs. If I want to know about other stuff I call the appropriate person, IBCLC, Chiro, consult a book, whatever. I would never ask a ped anything that didn't have to do with sickness. Am I just rare? I thought that was normal, my friends do the same thing. Does mainstream America just think the pedi is a one stop for everything one needs to know from birth-18?

:love: I think I love you. Most people I know DO take a ped's (or any doctor's) word as gospel.

[Starlight]

My older sons ped, at his 4 yr check up, said "he's 38 lbs. Now, that doesn't mean he can go in a booster. He is too young to be in a booster. He has to be 40 lbs AND 4 years to be in a booster. What seat is he in now?"

Unfortunately, when he was 2.5, he weighed 38 lbs, and our local CPST recommended a booster for him.

So he's been using a booster (for occasional vehicles) since 2.5.

But I liked the peds attitude when it came to the carseat.

I disliked her attitude in response to other things. No co-sleeping, must vax, etc. If you don't, goodbye.

[thepeach80]

While I definitely think it's a DR's job to ask parents about carseats etc, they are doing their patients a disservice by not referring them on to the appropriate people and reccomending the safest things. We've had our DR since AJ was 6 mos old and she's asked about carseats once, that was at Evan's 18 mos appt. She asked if he was riding in a ffing seat and when I said no, she looked at me all crazy! lol I explained he was still rfing and would be till he outgrew the seat that way. I even told her I was certified. She said 'well, if you guys are o.k. w/ that'. I'm hoping she's looked into it since then since she just had her 5th baby...

[southpawboston]

IMO -- they should simply ask what kind of seat the child is using & refer parents to local CPSTs ... or employ us!

i totally agree... i think i even suggested this in another thread some time ago! :) why make doctors learn an entirely different field of expertise, when they already have to know a lot and keep up with constantly changing medical literature and drug development?

i totally think they should refer the patient to a CPST, and even develop a relationship with one or more who make regular visits to the dr's office.

but i disagree with this whole idea that doctors should be omniknowledgable... knowing the medical field is hard enough.

[Starlight]

i'm hoping to get in w/ my ped to pass out one of the usaa carseat handbooks w/ my card at specific well baby's...

we'll see.

[southpawboston]

Statistically speaking too many are recommending formula at 6m, crying it out, seperate rooms, forward facing at 1yr. These have all been proven to be harmful/dangerous but they don't know or keep up.

not to take this O/T, but we let our DD CIO, not because of our ped but because that's what ended up working for us after exaustive attempts at other methods (it worked like a charm, in fact, and she became the happiest baby on the block (heh) since that was the first time she got proper sleep). i can totally see your points as they pertain to FFing @ 1 yr and formula at 6 months, but where has it been proven that putting our DD in a separate room (or CIO) has harmed her in any way? i thought those were parenting styles, and whatever works best for a particular parent and child is what works. :confused:

[littleangelfire]

I agree it's too much to ask to expect our peds to be jack of all trades, knowing everything about anything having to do with our kids. Unfortunately, that's what they're expected to do every day by many parents who don't take the initiative or don't know where else to go to get info. I also agree many peds are still totally old school and giving parents iffy info advising them to allow their little babies to 'cry it out' and 'soothe themselves' and never ever to let a baby sleep in their bed. I haven't met a ped yet who said to stop breastfeeding and go on formula, shame on that one!! But that's why I felt it was so important to go to a ped who I know shared many of my views and would support me in decisions about my child, as long as I wasn't hurting him, of course! My ped knew I intended to bf as long as possible (it didn't work out that way, hormones suck and they dried me up boohoo:( ) and he encouraged me and gave me tips on how to be successful with it, he wasn't nearly as helpful as the lactation consultant at my ob/gyn's office, but he was helpful when I needed to know if the meds I was taking would affect my son. He knows my son shares my bed most of the time, and supports me in that, and he's never told me to let him cry it out, he's a firm believer, like I am, that in most milestones of life, kids will do them most willingly when they're really ready and not pushed ahead of time, including weaning from the breast, sleeping in their own bed, weaning off the bottle, going to sleep on their own, potty training, blah blah blah. It's not that I'm extolling his virtues (well, I am, I LOVE him, and I DO often go to him with anything having to do with my son b/c I respect his wisdom and his opinion) but more that it's important to have ped who agrees with and supports you, though that can be exerting to find. :) I got lucky since he's gone to church with us since I was a young child so I know him and his family well and I was seen in his practice as a baby. Word of mouth is one of the best ways to find one that's like your ideas.

As far as having experts on hand, his office does direct to the CPST's at our Children's Mercy Hospital, as far as specific seats are concerned. General questions he can answer, though. I see what everyone is saying, though, and it's unfortunate so many peds feel the push to know everything and don't delegate to specialists. But then, I'm not a tech, but I'd feel confident (now anyways, not a few weeks ago!) advising someone on car seats, and have been ever since I was directed to this site and learned all the common mistakes and the best ways to keep 'em safe. I've also helped some of my friends during their breastfeeding times b/c I researched that so much, too, and I'm not a lactation consultant.

So many things I want to be...lol...lactation consultant, CPST.

[griffinmom]

My BIL is a ped. He knows kids should be in carseats/boosters until 8-10.
He believes in extended RF. He also knows he is not a CPS tech. He refers people to techs to get the correct advice. He knows enough to know he shouldn't give specific advice. He leaves that to techs and he trusts me not to try to diagnose strep.

Like it or not, parents look to peds for advice. Although many parents think peds know all wrt to kids, they don't. Peds, like any other profession, should acknowledge the limits of their expertise.

"Western medicine." Whatever.

[littleangelfire]

but where has it been proven that putting our DD in a separate room (or CIO) has harmed her in any way? i thought those were parenting styles, and whatever works best for a particular parent and child is what works. :confused:
Well, yes, and no. :) The fact: babies cry to communicate to us. Fact 2: when their cry is ignored, no matter what we grownups think the cause is, it is not 'teaching' them to soothe themselves, all it teaches them is that for some reason they don't undrstand they're needs are being ignored for the moment. Repeated lack of responsiveness to babies' cries damages their security and mental health, and while some children may appear to rebound, there can be side effects that won't show up for years. To put it this way, even lots of adults need help going to sleep, why wouldn't a baby? The prevalence of the cry it out method in the previous couple of generations may very well be in part to blame for the large population of insecure adults we now have who then go looking for that security elsewhere. The mothering.com link gives a good explanation for the where/when/how the cry it out method got started. Crying it out, though popular still b/c it allows us parents to go about the many things we need to get done :) has no root in actually being good for the baby...it was created out of the parents needs, not the child's. Babies don't need to learn to soothe themselves, it comes with time and maturity. when babies eventually stop crying, it is not because they have learned to go to sleep, but b/c they have given up b/c no one is coming to respond to their needs. I've listed some links in case you're interested, and if you're not that's cool, too. :) The reason I believe the other member stated it as a engative thing is b/c professional minds are now realizing that it is harmful to babies, whereas they didn't use to think so. It's always been a solution to in the best interests of parents getting sleep, not of babies getting what they needed. Even Dr. Ferber, the 'father' of the method has abandoned his ideas on the subject and done a 180. And research is suggesting that leaving a baby to cry it out can actually cause brain damage. I have lots of sleepless nights with a preemie who nursed every half hour for 4 months! But I tried (and still try!) to remember that one day I won't get to hold him anymore, and I will miss those nights holding him. I've never heard a parents say they were sorry they held their child to sleep, but I have heard many a parent regret letting their child scream themselves to sleep. But, I realize it could be a very heated issue, so unless asked a question, I promise I won't respond again on the issue. :) I've shared my opinion, and respect that others may disagree.
http://www.theregister.com/2006/07/14/the_odd_body_crying/
http://www.babycenter.com/expert/2644.html
http://www.askdrsears.com/html/10/handout2.asp
http://www.askdrsears.com/faq/az38.asp
http://www.askdrsears.com/html/5/t051200.asp#T051205
http://www.mothering.com/articles/new_baby/bonding/connection.html
http://www.babycenter.com/dilemma/toddler/toddlersleep/1243795.html
http://www.awareparenting.com/comfort.htm
http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/crying.html
http://www.primalspirit.com/pr2_1solter_tears.htm

[Starlight]

Hey, this is still a carseat forum, right?

Just checking. :whistle:

[cryswilkins]

Back on topic, at my last visit with Zoe I asked out pedi if she had any numbers to CPST's in our area. I asked if the health dept did seat checks and she told me to go to a local fire station or see if they will seat check me at BRU :doh: I was shocked but left it at that.

[Judi]

Today I had a customer at work that had a 24lb baby, over a year. I told her that RFing is better and why. She said her Ped told her to FF, and she did, and will continue to. :mad:

[littleangelfire]

I've taken to answering car seat questions on yahoo.com (I know I've seen at least one of you in the responses, too! :) )and I was appalled to read these parents talking about how they got 'the green light' from their ped to turn their big babies around before 12 months. I have a large child, hit 20lbs before he hit 7 months, and was very tall too (I'm a bad mommy I don't remember how tall) he's always been in 95th % for both height and weight, and though I wish I had known enough to keep him rear facing until he was 30lbs (the limit of his Triumph he had), I didn't dream of turning him around. People just don't think! And I realize it's very likely some of them are lying about their ped saying that b/c their rationalizing it to make it sound like they didn't something dangerous to their child, but still...
here's the question:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AsQH1Nk.6oQgk_IEIhMRilsjzKIX?qid=200704 25191712AAfeXjI

[scatterbunny]

I answered Yahoo questions for awhile but the level of misinformation and plain ignorance there is SCARY and it just got to me. :( I can't go back.

[littleangelfire]

I hear ya. It's amazing how such a large portion of world population can be so clueless about so many things! I mostly answer parenting questions, cuz that's my passion since becoming a momma, and it just amazes me the beliefs that exist about what's good for safety. Makes me feel like I can't do any good at all, but, for the fun of it, I answer anyways. ;D

[Judi]

Ack! I can't believe some of the ansers! Well, if they don't fit, FF them. I did at 10 months! Oh my gosh!!

[ThreeBeans]

Southpaw, there's quite a bit of information out there showing that CIO is harmful to a baby. I don't want to derail the thread, but if you're curious feel free to PM me :o :D

[scatterbunny]

I have to say, I used CIO to a point with Hayley, and I do wonder now if doing that contributed to her high sensitivity and demanding nature. Of course, just like I can't say vaccines for-sure played a role, I can't say for-sure CIO played a role, but looking back on the parenting choices I made without adequate research, just doing what I thought I "should" do according to older relatives and doctors, I have to wonder.

[Knittingfor4]

Well, I wasn't going to say more, but since you said that scatterbunny: I AP'd all mine to the max, maybe overboard. Bfing on demand, babywearing, cosleeping, responding to everything. And no vax, no circ, no artificial ingredients. Yet my oldest has ADHD and ODD (oppositional defiant disorder). And although my second nursed for 7 more months than the first, I wonder about his IQ sometimes. Moms should do a better job of not beating ourselves up too much. We all make mistakes/questionable choices. Sometimes the culprit is never identified :confused:

[scatterbunny]

Thanks for that--I really appreciate it. We do beat ourselves up too much sometimes. It's hard not to! I get treated (by FRIENDS, even--who are no longer friends now) like I either a) caused my child's problems, or b) I'm making up my child's problems for attention. It really, really sucks.

[skaterbabscpst]

Don't worry about it Jenny. I can't tell you how many times I had someone tell me to give them one of the boys "for a week and I'll fix him!" :rolleyes: I've been tempted more than once!

[littleangelfire]

I think we do beat ourselves up too much sometimes. I mean, as soon as I learned that my baby could have stayed rear facing until about 6 months ago, I was floored and felt pretty guilty. Especially considering I drive a Honda Civic Coupe, a safe enough car, but tiny, and not the best for backseat passengers! I follow attachment parenting for the most part, too though I didn't know I was until when my son was 12 months old I picked up book my mom gave me and realized I agreed with most everything they said. I'd just been doing what came natural, I figured if it went against my instincts there was a good chance it wasn't right. Like the one (and only) night I ever attempted to let my son (about 9 months old) cry it out. I was pressured and thought maybe it'd be the only thing that'd work like everyone else said (particularly the elderly members of my church!) and I've never regretted a parenting decision more. That was the least amount of sleep I got. I cried for 5 hours along with my baby and just felt wrong about it the whole time. My son was a major booger the next day, probably from a mixture of lack of sleep, insecurity, and confusion as to why I suddenly didn't answer his calls and I realized the way we'd been doing it, him mostly sleeping in my room or my bed, worked SO much better! I got loads more sleep than the other new moms in my church b/c I kept my baby with me, nursed him on demand throught the night (and day) and just drifted to sleep while nursing on my side. I didn't have the getting up, walking down to the kitchen to get formula or walking down the hall to his room to pick him up and get him back to sleep and put him back just to come to my room and do it over an hour later. He got more sleep, too, since he didn't get to the point of self-righteous screams, he got answered quickly.
I actually think that's the only time a parent should reflect on maybe making a mistake, when the cause and effect have been literally sseen with your own eyes and are obvious. Otherwise, we're just guessing at what caused problems, and even if we're right we can't go back. :) I figure it was a learning experience that I'll never repeat.
Amy

[southpawboston]

Well, I wasn't going to say more, but since you said that scatterbunny: I AP'd all mine to the max, maybe overboard. Bfing on demand, babywearing, cosleeping, responding to everything. And no vax, no circ, no artificial ingredients. Yet my oldest has ADHD and ODD (oppositional defiant disorder). And although my second nursed for 7 more months than the first, I wonder about his IQ sometimes. Moms should do a better job of not beating ourselves up too much. We all make mistakes/questionable choices. Sometimes the culprit is never identified :confused:

see, that shows that things like anxiety and other mental variations from "pure happiness" are things that are highly variable from person to person... we are not all programmed to be perfectly happy and even tempered. does upbringing influence our mental states? certainly. but i think we place too much emphasis on trying to correlate exactly how our parenting methods influence how well our children fare later in life. you can't simply say that one parenting style causes X, and another parenting style causes Y. i came from a family that was brought up "old school": CIO, BF to 1-2 years, separate rooms, definitely no AP, yet my three other siblings and i are all different... some of us are even tempered, well-adjusted, and amiable all the time; others are more irritable, hot tempered, and grumpy (i think you know where i stand there :). thank goodness none of us have any significant mental disorders.

my whole point is that children's needs are different. AP may work great for some kids, but maybe not for others. it certainly didn't work for our second DD... we tried it, and believe me, we really tried. what ended up happening is that everyone was sleep deprived... and i mean EVERYONE. now, i haven't done the research, but i can't see how letting you and your child go on with extended sleep deprivation for months isn't damaging. on the other hand, by letting our daughter CIO (we did a gentler form of CIO than ferber suggested, and we didn't do it until 6 months), within a couple of weeks she was sleeping happy as a clam, and so were we. we were probably very lucky, since we have heard that some kids simply don't respond to CIO and spend months screaming.

now, consider the indirect consequences of all this. before CIO, everyone was sleep deprived. we were barely functioning, and DD2 was overtired and unhappy all the time (she never slept for more than 1 hour at a time!). the quality of the interaction between DW and me, DW and DD2, and DD2 and me were all very poor. not to mention, our quality of life with poor DD1, who was just a toddler, went down hill too. after CIO, the quality of everyone's life improved. DD2 became happy as can be, she got a wonderfully refreshing sleep, and DW and I were also able to interact in a much richer way with each other and with our toddler. isn't THAT worth a lot in the overall healthy development of a child??!! i think people fail to see those indirect consequences. in our case, we don't think we really even knew what DD2 wanted when she would cry most of the time during AP... and believe me, we tried to understand. in the end, CIO is what worked for us. and to insinuate that what we did was potentially damaging/harmful is somehwat shortsighted. every parent has to find what works best for them, and it's not going to be universally the same for everyone.

now, for all of you who are anti-CIO and pro AP, great, if that's what worked for YOU, then fantastic. but please don't go saying that it's intrinsically bad. it all depends on how the child and parent react to it.

[kjcoggins0405]

Just for a different point of view, I took my little one for her 6 months checkup yesterday. At the VERY end of the appointment by ped. said, "Given her growth curve, I think you will run into a problem that a lot of other parents do and that will be that your baby will be greater that 20 pounds before she turns one, but I recommend that she still RF." I answered that we would be doing extended RF and that I had bought a Britax. She said that's great you have done your research, that was going to me my next recommendation, that you start looking for sales now.

:thumbsup: So my ped is in agreement with RF.

[ThreeBeans]

Southpaw, I was just saying that there is physical proof that CIO actually has a medically unhealthy effect on the development of a baby's brain. I can link you if you're interested :)


Scatterbunny, you can't cure everything with AP. Just because you made one mistake doesn't mean you caused your dd's high needs. APed children are just as likely to have high needs as non-APed children. My two kids are both APed. Older brother is Mr. Indepedence. He hasn't needed me since the day he could walk :rolleyes: ;) , whereas DD is still surgically attached to my hip and will probably be that way till she goes to college. Kids are different. :cool:

[chloespurple]

Sorry if it was already said, but what does AP mean?

[littleangelfire]

Sorry if it was already said, but what does AP mean? AP = attachment parenting. which isn't really a parenting style so much as parenting naturally, I mean, just instinctually doing what comes natural to baby and parent: holding, feeding on demand, and letting baby do things when baby is ready. Allows children to make a secure attachment to their caregivers early in life enabling them to be independent later, the theory having backing in the damage that has been caused by a few generations of going against what comes naturally to mom and child (promoting formula feeding over breastfeeding, crying it out, forcing baby to soothe themselves, leaving babies to sit in swings, bouncers, etc. rather than carrying babies in slings as parents have done for eons.)www.askdrsears.com explains better. :)

[LaurieB]

On the ped an car seat part of this thread :) Our peds office has us fill out a yes/no questionaire each time based on age and it always asks if the child is riding in a rear facing car seat, a forward facing seat or a booster (you have to pick which) I've never talked with our ped about it (I get better info here, plus we have too much medical stuff to talk about while I'm there the car seat is the least of our problems! Now the developmental ped, he's the CRUX of our problems, but thats a whole other board...

Oh, but in eack room is a flip board from the State of WA and on the page covering infants in convertibles it says that kids should rear face to the weight limit of the seat ... but its rarely opened to that page so I always open the one in our room to it!

Laurie in WA

[littleangelfire]

Since learning that rf is best, it just seems so weird to me that the part about staying rf to the seat limits is always like an afterthought, and the bolded part is the whole 12 months, 20lbs, thing.:confused:

[chloespurple]

---Thanks for the explanation littleangelfire.

---Hi Laurie,
On the ped an car seat part of this thread Our peds office has us fill out a yes/no questionaire each time based on age and it always asks if the child is riding in a rear facing car seat, a forward facing seat or a booster (you have to pick which) I've never talked with our ped about it (I get better info here, plus we have too much medical stuff to talk about while I'm there the car seat is the least of our problems!Sorry about all of the medical problems youand your family are dealing with.

[chloespurple]

I have been reading everyones comments & I have gotten the impression that some think that I, or other Moms & Dads, expect to get car seat advice from our Dr. & that is not the case.

It is a part of the regular wellness exam that the car seat is even brought up, routine questions I get asked everytime we go for our checkups: "is your medicine cabinet proofed?".... "do you live in a lead free home?"...... "does anyone smoke in your house?"...... "is ____ in daycare?".... "do you have working smoke detectors?"... "do you use a carseat?" and so on....

I only talked with my ped about the car seat because she asks. In the past (when Karli was first born) she referred us to our local PD for getting our seat checked (b/c I was concerned about having it installed properly). Since then I have found this board and learned TONS and have met with a local CPST.

My point is when Karli turned one the Dr. told me she can FF, I knew that I was going to keep her RF from the research I had done, the Dr. looked at me like I was crazy.

I had hoped when we went back this week for the 15 month check up that the Dr. would have done her research or talked to a CPST, since they are telling parents to FF at one and there is the option to continue to RF.

Yes I know that pediatricians don't have time to be trained car seat technicians, but if they are going to discuss it with parents as part of the wellness check up, they should be better informed. If I had not done all the research Karli would probably be FF-ing now I would have never known the difference.

[Judi]

My point is when Karli turned one the Dr. told me she can FF, I knew that I was going to keep her RF from the research I had done, the Dr. looked at me like I was crazy.

I had hoped when we went back this week for the 15 month check up that the Dr. would have done her research or talked to a CPST, since they are telling parents to FF at one and there is the option to continue to RF.

Yes I know that pediatricians don't have time to be trained car seat technicians, but if they are going to discuss it with parents as part of the wellness check up, they should be better informed. If I had not done all the research Karli would probably be FF-ing now I would have never known the difference.


:yeahthat:

I work at Baby Depot. My customers expect me to know a lot about breastfeading, bottle types, woods of cribs, what size shoes their child will wear in six months, and of course car seat safety. I try to learn all I can about every subject of babyhood. Is it too much to ask, for the ped to just say, "It is safer to continue to rear face in your next seat!" and hand a flyer for a car seat clinic! I wish my ped for my son would have spent less time worrying about my breasts, and asking if he could feel them and told me atleast one thing about car seat safety! It may have made a difference in the car accident, when my son was 9 months old and FFing!

[Connor's Mom]

Well I guess I'm just crazy cause I view anything said by someone with MD behind their name with great concern! I'm no hippie or anything, but I think the western med profession is nuts and just hasn't got a clue on most things. I hate that drs advise on sleeping positions, car seats, breastfeeding. They do not recieve any education about those subjects whatsoever! My pedi actually told me I was putting ds at rist by co-sleeping then wanted to inject him w/vaccines :confused: I'm thinking, whoa buddy, who's the risk taker here! Yikes! I don't remember being asked about carseats other than to check the box on the questionaire saying I have one installed in the car. That's it. Crazy! It makes no sense. You wouldn't see a cardiologist about migranes? Why do parents think peds know about carseats and other stuff? I didn't even make it 1yr so I never got a paper telling me to turn him around.


I will politely have to disagree with some of your statements. Being a Registered Nurse (who "has a clue") I do know some things that Medical Doctors are trained in and they do include sleeping positions and breast feeding. And, I do not think that my pediatrician is the exception to the rule. He is in practice with his wife who is a Pediatric Nurse Practitioner (and a CPST, :) ). They have 6 children themselves and are well versed in up to date pediatric information. They offer private consultation for evaluation on such topics as allergies, childhood diabetes and weight reduction, child development and nutrition including breast feeding. As I said, his wife is a CPTS and they both recommend extended use of harnessed safety seats and extended rear facing placement. They defiantly have an understanding of children well beyond the medical perspective.

Our local pediatric hospital, Children's Hospital Of Austin, also has a link on their home page that connects to their very own "Car Seat Safety Calendar" where at least twice weekly classes are offered where their Certified technicians will teach parents to use their child's car seat correctly. The hospital is also a member of the National SAFE KIDS Campaign, the nation’s first non-profit organization dedicated solely to the prevention of unintentional childhood injury-the number one killer of children age 14 and under. Projects include Car Seat Check Up Events, Bicycle Safety Rodeos, Home Safety Clinics, and active participation in health and safety fairs. The Coalition also offers educational programs and resources to help parents, teachers, and caregivers provide safer environments for all children.

I work in the ER of a Cardiac Specialty Hospital but we do offer C.S.I. (Child Safety ID) stickers to be placed on car seats for the safety of a child in an emergency situation and offer info on child safety seats and where you can go to have your seat checked by a CPTS.

[joolsplus3]

Hi all! Just thought this was a better place for this thread :) Carry on!

[chloespurple]

Thanks Julie, I should have posted it here to begin with:)

[cmm7]

My pedi actually told me I was putting ds at rist by co-sleeping then wanted to inject him w/vaccines :confused: I'm thinking, whoa buddy, who's the risk taker here! Yikes!

Hahahaha! This made me laugh SOOOO hard! Would you mind if I passed it around? Full credit to you of course!

[Knittingfor4]

No problem, the more educated the merrier :thumbsup:

[southpawboston]

My pedi actually told me I was putting ds at rist by co-sleeping then wanted to inject him w/vaccines I'm thinking, whoa buddy, who's the risk taker here! Yikes!

No problem, the more educated the merrier

maybe i'm missing something, but i don't see how that quote is at all educational or informative. :confused:

all i know is that if and when the avian flu begins to transmit from human to human, my family is going to be one of the first in line for vaccination.

[papooses]

They do not recieve any education about those subjects whatsoever! 100% false.

They receive monthly updates of research done throughout the world on everything health related -- some just choose not to listen to it like any other HUMAN ... some actually do & adapt their advice accordingly (such as Leila's Daddy)

[skaterbabscpst]

I will politely have to disagree with some of your statements. Being a Registered Nurse (who "has a clue") I do know some things that Medical Doctors are trained in and they do include sleeping positions and breast feeding. And, I do not think that my pediatrician is the exception to the rule. He is in practice with his wife who is a Pediatric Nurse Practitioner (and a CPST, :) ). They have 6 children themselves and are well versed in up to date pediatric information. They offer private consultation for evaluation on such topics as allergies, childhood diabetes and weight reduction, child development and nutrition including breast feeding. As I said, his wife is a CPTS and they both recommend extended use of harnessed safety seats and extended rear facing placement. They defiantly have an understanding of children well beyond the medical perspective.

Our local pediatric hospital, Children's Hospital Of Austin, also has a link on their home page that connects to their very own "Car Seat Safety Calendar" where at least twice weekly classes are offered where their Certified technicians will teach parents to use their child's car seat correctly. The hospital is also a member of the National SAFE KIDS Campaign, the nation’s first non-profit organization dedicated solely to the prevention of unintentional childhood injury-the number one killer of children age 14 and under. Projects include Car Seat Check Up Events, Bicycle Safety Rodeos, Home Safety Clinics, and active participation in health and safety fairs. The Coalition also offers educational programs and resources to help parents, teachers, and caregivers provide safer environments for all children.

I work in the ER of a Cardiac Specialty Hospital but we do offer C.S.I. (Child Safety ID) stickers to be placed on car seats for the safety of a child in an emergency situation and offer info on child safety seats and where you can go to have your seat checked by a CPTS.

Then the doctors you work with are the exception. Most give out horrible breastfeeding advice and even worse carseat advice. I *adore* my ped, but her BF advice frankly sucks. Car seats? SHe's better, and she's open to being educated. She loves it when I bring in car seat stuff for her.

maybe i'm missing something, but i don't see how that quote is at all educational or informative. :confused:

all i know is that if and when the avian flu begins to transmit from human to human, my family is going to be one of the first in line for vaccination.


Vaccines are NOT "safe". They carry seroius risks. I would NEVER give my child a NEW vaccine. Some vaccines are downright dangerous. You need to make educated choices about vaccines just like anything else, and look past the CDC and FDA on this one. They have too much money invested to be an unbiased source of information.

A very well-written, balanced book regarding vaccinations is pediatrician/famy practictioner Dr. Stephanie Cave's book What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Children's Vaccinations (http://www.amazon.com/What-Doctor-About-Childrens-Vaccinations/dp/0446677078).

[papooses]

Both sides of the vax issue make valid, well researched points & I agree with any parent who chooses to vax or not to vax based on having done their research :)

In the simplest of terms, the risks from the vax just doesn't compare to the risk of death from being infected with certain diseases -- then again the risk for one's own nonvax'd child isn't that high in comparison unless the child is in constant contact with someone who's been in a 3rd world country (many parents do worry about nonvax'd kids being an issue for other kids in schools, but that much I haven't read up on as much).

We delayed vaxes while I mulled the issue over & Moise (Leila's stepdady & a medical doctor) supported my decision not to vax at all except for the fact that he spent many months in Africa & we don't know if he is now a carrier for any number of deadly diseases even though he had all the required shots through childhood + those specific to the trip ... so considering that, it just made sense to catch Leila up on all her vaxes before I let him move in -- because, honestly, I'd rather risk Autism or any other survivable illness than death :(

[ThreeBeans]

Both sides of the vax issue make valid, well researched points & I agree with any parent who chooses to vax or not to vax based on having done their research :)



I agree COMPLETELY with this. I fully respect that two people who are both intelligent, educated and good parents, can review the vaccination facts and come to polar opposite conclusions.

My only problem is with parents who DON'T research and just let their kids get 'needles' without having a clue what's going into their kids' fragile little systems :rolleyes:

[scatterbunny]

I didn't really research vaccines until fairly recently; Hayley had all the scheduled shots, most on time. I only read the inserts the doctor gave me before making my decision. I delayed a couple purposely.

In the last few months though, I've read more on vaccines, and friends who are very anti-vax have given me info to read. Mark and I are leaning towards NOT vaxing any future children (should they ever accidentally occur :p ).

Hayley is already a highly sensitive child, both emotionally and physically. She gets mystery rashes often. She is sensitive to food additives. I don't want to risk exposing her to even the minute amounts of nasty stuff that's in vaccines, now that I am aware.

[scatterbunny]

Becky, that book sounds awesome, but it was written in 2001--do you know of a newer version, or something similar that's maybe more up-to-date?

[lodonal65]

Becky, that book sounds awesome, but it was written in 2001--do you know of a newer version, or something similar that's maybe more up-to-date?

Not a book but some good website info on vaxs

http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/legally_avoid_shots.htm

http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/links.htm

http://www.vaccines.bizland.com/

[lodonal65]

My ped asked one time about car seats for Ian. She started into the 1year/20 lbs "rule" and I cut her off and told her I was a CPST. She then said(very arrogantly), well you know what to do then. I depise seeing her and avoid any appts with her at all costs.
But then again I don't think they like to see me coming. When I refused a vax when Ian was a baby, the NP actaully wrote in his medical records that I refused HER recommendations and I was "counseled" about putting my child in "grave danger" @@
Ian's cloth diapers were always thought of as cute "covers" for his "disposable" diapers @@
And the male nurse used to just call me "the crazy lady like his wife" because I co-slept @@

[lodonal65]

And I couldn't let the CIO part of this thread go without replying.
There have been studies that prove CIO actually changes an infant's brain chemistry. It also increases their heartrate,breathing and BP. Basically like an adult going through a panic attack.
And if this is allowed to continue, it can alter the child's brain and cause lasting effects into adulthood.

[scatterbunny]

And I couldn't let the CIO part of this thread go without replying.
There have been studies that prove CIO actually changes an infant's brain chemistry. It also increases their heartrate,breathing and BP. Basically like an adult going through a panic attack.
And if this is allowed to continue, it can alter the child's brain and cause lasting effects into adulthood.

THIS is a big part of why I think Hayley and I both have anxiety/oversensitivity issues. We are very passive/aggressive, like, "come here I want you/need you all the time/get away I hate you" type of thing. :( My mom used CIO with me, I'm positive...and wasn't all that loving. I never felt comfy hugging her, even. I try so hard to be different in so many ways, but the older I get, the more I realize how many parenting choices I've made that are a mirror-image of my own mom. :(

[scatterbunny]

And thanks so much for those links, Lysandra! I bookmarked them all to read thoroughly later. ;)

[littleangelfire]

[QUOTE=lodonal65;129057I depise seeing her and avoid any appts with her at all costs. But then again I don't think they like to see me coming. @@[/QUOTE]

Lysandra, if at all possible, I'd sure be finding a new ped! I know insurance can make things SO difficult (my son is on medicaid, king of difficult though I'm grateful it's there), but a ped needs to support you (to an extent, I understand, I mean, I woudln't expect a ped to stand by & watch a parent really hurt their kid!) and the thought of seeing them shouldn't make you cringe, I mean, they're going to be a consistent part of your child's ilfe for a long time.

As for vaccinations, for myself, even the risk of most the diseases they protect against, like polio, hepatitis, etc. is worth the as yet scientifically unproven link between vax and autism. There was a large rumor concerning the mercury in these products, but it has not been proven, and is now besides the point, as it has been removed from most the vaccinations. It's safety wasn't an issue until we started giving kids SO many vaccines. But, years of these vaccines are WHY these diseases no longer occur with any regularity in our country, and it actually scares me to think more and more parents are turning down vax b/c it will result in these diseases coming back. The worry was for kids (like me, yippie!) who received their vax in the 80's and 90's when the mercury use was at the highest b/c of the amount of vax given. The FDA requested companies voluntary remove it from their vax in 1999, and mostly they have. It is used to prevent bacterial contamination, AND us parents have the right to request thermisol (mercury combo) free vax for our kids, as I have done. And then there's no worry, they get the protection they (and the rest of us) need without a speculatively dangerous product. Anyways, the only vax I hesitated was the chicken pox, studies seem to show it may perhaps wear off when they grow up and chicken pox as an adult is much worse than as a child so I've heard. But, in the end, since my son was a preemie who got sick frequently and had a hard time getting over it every time, I had him get it. I didn't want to risk losing him to the chicken pox when a needle prick would save him.

I hate that he has to hurt to be protected, but it's short, and as he's gotten older, rewards go a long way, he gets cookies. :) As a baby I nursed him until he got them and nursed him afterwards so he could work off stress. I see it the same as the IV that was necessary when he was only 48 hours old b/c he had hyperbilrubinemia (jaundiced badly).

Anyways, my thoughts for what they're worth. I do still think it's my job to research what's good for my son, though, I don't automatically buy whatever doctors say, sometimes they are wrong or misinformed unfortuantely, or just have a difference in opinion. (Like when my ped who I love, pushed me to get my son off his bottle at 12 months. He wasn't ready. I weaned him off the milk in his bottle, gave him water. But he wasn't ready to completely give it up until a little passed 2, and then he gave it up willingly with no issues. We have a happier household when he gets do things when he's physically/developmentally ready to do them. But that's a whole other issue. :))

http://www.medicalconsumers.org/pages/MercuryinChildhoodVaccination.html

[lodonal65]

Lysandra, if at all possible, I'd sure be finding a new ped! I know insurance can make things SO difficult (my son is on medicaid, king of difficult though I'm grateful it's there), but a ped needs to support you (to an extent, I understand, I mean, I woudln't expect a ped to stand by & watch a parent really hurt their kid!) and the thought of seeing them shouldn't make you cringe, I mean, they're going to be a consistent part of your child's ilfe for a long time.

[/url]

We are military and have a PCM. That's who I avoid. There are other very good peds that I try to routinely schedule appts with.
I am the squeaky wheel when it comes to my kids health. IYKWIM?
In fact, Ian's 5yo check up is with a ped who is also a hematologist and internist. He has 7 kids and they were all EBF.

[lodonal65]

And thanks so much for those links, Lysandra! I bookmarked them all to read thoroughly later. ;)

You're Welcome.

[littleangelfire]

I must admit to not knowing what a hemotoligist is. That's awesome those kids got the benefit of bf for so long. I've wished over and over I could've bf longer. :( My son only got it to 4 months b/c I have a hormone problem and I dried up. I did try going on medication to help promote milk production (Reglan) but I had an awful reaction to it,hard to describe, a more 'worldly' friend said it sounded like being on speed. My body was in hyperdrive even though as a new mom I was exhausted. It was awful and scary. So...hopefully one day God'll bless me with a husband (I know, I know, that's supposed to come before the child, I messed up. :)) and more kids, and next time I'll be ready with hospital grade pump in hand at birth, and all the herbal remedies I can find as well as a few medical. :) Can't wait.

[lodonal65]

Hematologist is someone who treats blood diseases. Like sickle cell, leukemia etc.
Well 4 months is better than no months! And now you know what to do next time. Just add in calling a La Leche League Leader and IBCLC :) You can never have enough support BFing

[Judi]

What is CIO?

[scatterbunny]

CIO=cry it out.

[Judi]

Got it. Thanks.