Why Isn't Anyone Complaining About... [Archive] - Car Seat.Org - Carseat, Vehicle & Child Passenger Safety Forums

southpawboston

04-24-2007, 02:42 PM

I live in Northern california and it's already $3.45 here. It's just common for the prices to start going up this time of year. I don't agree with the prices,but there really isn't anything to do(other than not get gas).

you know, there is something we can do, and you just alluded to the solution. ;)

wow, what a complacent bunch! :(

the fact is, macgyver is right. big oil has figured out that americans are wealthy enough, on average, to deal with the high prices. we keep buying huge gas-guzzling SUVs and just accept high gas prices as a fact of life. by not complaining, we are being complacent. if we boycotted big oil, they would listen. also, if our current administration wasn't in bed with big oil, things would change.

cpsaddict

04-24-2007, 03:31 PM

Well, I hate them, but not buying gas is not an option for me. I live out in the boonies where you have to drive 10 MILES to the nearest bus stop. You think I'm gonna walk or bike in a busy two lane highway that far in the morning? The nearest grocery store is 5 miles away on the same stretch of road. Heck, we don't even have access to cable tv or high speed internet! So, why complain about it? In reality, there is nothing I can do that will make it stop!

Where I work we offer bulk fuel delivery to farms. Someone just ordered 600 gallons of premium and even with a bulk price of 3.42 that is $2052 in FUEL! :eek:

I hear the complaing all day, every day. But they still have to buy it to stay in business. They have to buy diesel in huge quanities. A tractor with an empty fuel tank does not pay for itself.

SIGH :o

joolsplus3

04-24-2007, 03:44 PM

I took a picture at Shell the other day... it had the price for regular but was blank on the Plus and Premium...If I could find the camera I'd post it, a more clever person than me could photoshop in, 'If you have to ask, you can't afford it' :D (it was $2.89 for regular, BTW...some stations are at $3 here for premium)

papooses

04-24-2007, 04:19 PM

HA! I just sent a PM saying I don't even want to drive 1/2 mile to waste gas for something I can do tomorrow on my way home :o 87 octane = $2.99 here now & since I don't need anything higher than that I don't even look at the other prices....

beebear23

04-24-2007, 04:26 PM

It's been over $3 here for quite some time. $3.29 last I checked, and that was at the cheapie horrible gas station.

I guess I don't complain anymore b/c we aren't driving as much as we used to when we lived in our old house..

And there isn't anything we can do, so why bother. :) We can't change gas prices.

skaterbabscpst

04-24-2007, 04:40 PM

Honestly, this time last year it was higher than it is now, and Canada, NZ and Austrailia (as well as Europe) have MUCH higher gas prices than we do.

rlsadc

04-24-2007, 05:09 PM

I havent seen anything under $3 here locally (Las Vegas) but gas prices always go up when it starts getting warmer. Make me want to walk more :thumbsup:

Morganthe

04-24-2007, 05:41 PM

Shifting base lines. We survived high costs last year. It's not as big a deal this year so far. But wait to see how high it gets around 4 July -- that tends to be a peak time.

Besides, we are a capitalist society that supports the ideology that business is ethical and competes on a fair market economy. It's not really. But unless we want some sort of governmental regulation over gas prices, (which is NEVER going to happen) then gas prices will rise whenever and for whatever reason.

Oil companies are making record profits because that 10% (just a guess)profit margin is substantially more at $3.50 a gallon than $2 a gallon in the good ole days of 2 years ago :shrug-shoulders:

They could double the price of gas fuel and as long as every single oil company adjusted the rate at the same time, there's nothing much anyone could do except complain. We don't like it, but there's no law against profit in the US. Politicians are useless unless there's a mass movement to crack down on the Oil lobby. Again, as a united country, I don't see that happening soon if ever. It would require a drastic shift in our ideas on governmental power.

Okay-- essay over :p

DaniCPST

04-24-2007, 05:45 PM

I never complain about gas prices because I know that in the US we pay significantly less for gas than other countries do. Gas prices would be way higher then they are today if the price inflated like all other products have over the past years. For some reason gas prices have been numb to inflation for many, many years so we actually have been getting a good deal somewhat. :p
Also to me gas is relatively inexpensive for what it provides me. It costs the same as a gallon of milk and less then bottled water. Gas has to come from another country, be refined, shipped, trucked and then it allows my vehicle to take me places. Milk comes from a local dairy and only requires local trucking. Bottled water...well I won't even go there. Shoot look how expensive Starbucks coffee (if you figure it out per gallon) and that is a lot less work then getting gas to people. Obviously it is all a little more "deep" than this explanation but I don't have the energy to type everything I want to say. ;)
Yes it is higher then normal, but I choose to use it and I am willing to pay for it.

Susan in MI

04-24-2007, 06:00 PM

It is nearing $3 a gal here now. I'm not noticing it as much because dh is making more money because of it, and driving less to boot. He refs lacrosse every spring and this is the first year he has been paid milage for the games. Because the teams are paying milage, they want the refs that live close and/or car pool.

So, yes, prices are higher but we are spending less for gas this year, because we are using less and dh is being paid extra for part of what we use!

Now, when summer hits and lacrosse season is over, I'll feel the high gas prices more. We do drive more in the summer, as a family, because we go to the beach frequently. It is only 15-20 mintues away, but most of my other driving is only 5-10 minutes away.

Laurenc0101

04-24-2007, 06:31 PM

CRS

04-24-2007, 07:06 PM

GAS PRICES:mad:

Okay I don't get it, last time gas was almost up to $3/g everyone was irate and it was all over the news. This time I haven't heard a peep out of anyone:confused:

The gas companies have us figured out-raise prices until everyone complains, then lower for 6 months, then jack them back up again!

I've been asking friends this question and everyone says "why bother, it doesn't do anything". Maybe it has to go over $3/g this time before anyone complains?

LOL gas is $5.73 NZD ($4.25 USD) per gallon here!

Morganthe

04-24-2007, 07:39 PM

I never complain about gas prices because I know that in the US we pay significantly less for gas than other countries do.
I completely understand what you're saying. I lived in Germany and travelled a lot on the economy where US gas coupons were not available. With the terrible $-Euro exchange rate, I was paying over $6.50 a gallon for gas in France.
The problem with using that argument is that US household budgets are likely to not stretch with the sudden increase in gas costs. If one is raised with high costs, then it's part of the budget. But if you're already stretched to the max, then the additional $50 or more extra can seriously injure the family's financial health. It is a shock to the pocketbook. Getting rid of the gas guzzler that has payments left on it won't be easy at all.

Also to me gas is relatively inexpensive for what it provides me. It costs the same as a gallon of milk and less then bottled water. Gas has to come from another country, be refined, shipped, trucked and then it allows my vehicle to take me places. Milk comes from a local dairy and only requires local trucking. Bottled water...well I won't even go there. Shoot look how expensive Starbucks coffee (if you figure it out per gallon) and that is a lot less work then getting gas to people. Obviously it is all a little more "deep" than this explanation but I don't have the energy to type everything I want to say. ;)
Yes it is higher then normal, but I choose to use it and I am willing to pay for it.

Ah yes, I've read several editorials that paraphrase what you've written. I thought they were interesting, but made light of a serious issue. I can live without Milk or Starbucks. Fuel for my vehicles -- not at all. "Choice" and "Willing to pay"... obviously the higher costs doesn't make a serious difference for your household income. Popular terms these days that lessen serious financial issues for the working family. If dh doesn't "choose" to pay for the gas to get to work, he'll be thrown in prison. There's no other way for him to get to work unless he wants to walk 5 miles along a dangerous highway.

Luckily, we don't have to worry about trying to pay double for a tank of fuel vs paying the household utility bills. But I know of some families who have to make those hard decisions. It is very sad. Electricity costs here are outrageous. Adding the higher costs of fuel to commercial goods and produce just makes it even more difficult for them to get by.

southpawboston

04-24-2007, 07:57 PM

I couldn't even tell you how much it is here:o I just stopped driving if I don't absolutely have to be somewhere. I have had my current tank of gas for about three weeks. It is getting rediculous, but it is something some have to have.

Lauren:)

well if you've cut down on your driving because of the gas prices, then you're making a difference. :thumbsup: if everyone could do that, it would send a powerful message to big oil. also, if everyone drove more fuel-efficient vehicles, that would also send a big message... but as it stands, the oil execs see americans spending ever more money on every larger vehicles that get ever poorer fuel efficiency... so of course they're going to raise their prices... they know they can get away with it.

what we really need is for our government to impose gas rations like they did in the 70s during the oil crisis... that will force people to think about living more efficiently. yes it means sacrifice, but that's what it takes to make a point sometimes.

vonfirmath

04-24-2007, 07:59 PM

Because I am aware that the fault does not ALL lie on evil gas companies.

Estimated Gasoline Price Breakdown & Margin Details (http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/margins/index.html) <-- This website is put out by the California state government.

It appears that a LARGE part of the cost of gas is.... Cost of the oil.
The second largest part is... Refinery costs (probably partly because a new refinery has not been built in how many years?)
The third largest part? Taxes

(My guess is that the cost of ethanol additives added to gasoline is within the refinery part and that is the reason for the jump in costs and profits as you enter March. Ethanol is made out of corn, which has seen high jumps in price lately.)

How Gas Prices Work (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/gas-price.htm)

NPR Q&A (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5365439)

skaterbabscpst

04-24-2007, 08:31 PM

what we really need is for our government to impose gas rations like they did in the 70s during the oil crisis... that will force people to think about living more efficiently. yes it means sacrifice, but that's what it takes to make a point sometimes.

No, that would NOT help. Cars are more efficient now than they've ever been, even for cars that are ten-twelve years old. Gov't rations would put a LOT of people out of work in many places - most areas in the US are not set up with alternative transportation.

We moved closer to dh's job three years ago - to a house purchased by and rented from his employer's parents. Last year we purchased the house with financing from them, otherwise we could never have done it. Before the move, dh was commuting 45 minutes (all highway) ONE WAY to work each day. We could not afford to live closer, and there wasn't a decent job in his field in our small town. We still live 20-30 minutes from his office, and our city's public transportation would not help him at all. We're fortunate, he drives a company car.

But our situation is pretty common for our area - excepting the employer assistance (we're literally about ten miles from the city line for Richmond). Lots of people live anywhere from 20 to 90 minutes outside of the city and drive in each day. And unlike Boston, New York, ect, we don't have mass transit to transport these people in and out of the city.

Patriot201

04-24-2007, 08:33 PM

I just paid $3.03/gallon earlier this evening.

While that seems high to me (gas is signifantly cheaper in VA than in DC or MD), that's nothing compared to what other countries pay (as fosters.2 said). :)

Simplysomething

04-24-2007, 08:58 PM

Gas hasn't yet reached 3.00 a gallon this year, for us. It's close. But not there yet.

I had originally commented on other stuff in the thread, but I'm too lazy to make a point..so there is none.

We watched a show on Sunday (Earth Day!)...about Alternative Fuels... I'm still chuckling over "poo-powered" cars...lol.

broken4u05

04-24-2007, 09:12 PM

I have to drive for my job. I do not live near a bus stop and even so i have to drive with the boys. taking them to classes doctors and so on. But i do get paid from the parents for how much i drive with the kids

southpawboston

04-24-2007, 09:29 PM

Niea

04-24-2007, 11:19 PM

I haven't been complaining because the increases have been gradual.

If the price of gas jumps 10 cents a gallon, it will cost me $1.50 more to fill up my 15 gallon tank. I fill up 2-3 times a month, so that $3-5 extra isn't breaking me at all.

I marvel at the prices as I drive by the station on the way home but I don't "feel" it in my pocketbook. The increases amount to nothing more than pocket change to me.

If gas jumped dollars at a time, it would be much more noticable. But until it does that, the gradual change doesn't really bother me too much.

Erika Ruth

04-24-2007, 11:45 PM

skaterbabscpst

04-25-2007, 12:51 AM

I fill up once a month. My husband every 21 days or so. He works 10 minutes from home. The farthest place place I go is 3 miles away, and that is Costco. Babies R Us, and Trader Joes are 1 mile, Church and Doctor are less than 2 miles, and Target and Ralps are across the street (We walk). Even the beach is 3 miles.

Very rarely we go to Disneyland. That is my "gas hog" it takes me 30 minutes to get there!

So, gas prices, smash prices. I don't drive much. (there are some very small advantages to living in Los Angeles)

Erika

Where here in Richmond, it's ten-thirty minutes to get ANYWHERE. No and while there is a city bus line, I would not use it. And that has as much to do with the fact that I would have to walk along an extremely busy main road with no sidewalks for nearly 2 miles for the closest stop.

Erika Ruth

04-25-2007, 12:58 AM

Simplysomething

04-25-2007, 07:42 AM

10-15 Cents does hurt me. Even if it is a buck or two more to fill up. When I fill up, I get about 8 gallons at a time (I almost fill up at a quarter of a tank, anything below that and I panic). Certainly it's not much money at all, but it is less money that could be used in other places.And it part of work becomes "okay, I have worked x hours, I can now buy y amount of gas for the car".

Our area does have busing, but the city I live in doesn't have full service like the other cities (one missing thing is...we have no signs marking bus stops. lol). There are stores within 2 miles of my home, but no sidewalks until you are very close to the stores. So, to walk, I'd have to walk on the shoulder or the grass beside the highway.

My sons school is less than one mile away. He rides the bus. If it was within the neighborhood with sidewalks, etc, we might even walk it. It's not that far, but it's on the other side of the highway, again with the no sidewalks.

My car gets decent gas milege, I think, it could be better, but it's decent (it's an escort).

abckidsmom

04-25-2007, 07:47 AM

No, that would NOT help. Cars are more efficient now than they've ever been, even for cars that are ten-twelve years old. Gov't rations would put a LOT of people out of work in many places - most areas in the US are not set up with alternative transportation.

We moved closer to dh's job three years ago - to a house purchased by and rented from his employer's parents. Last year we purchased the house with financing from them, otherwise we could never have done it. Before the move, dh was commuting 45 minutes (all highway) ONE WAY to work each day. We could not afford to live closer, and there wasn't a decent job in his field in our small town. We still live 20-30 minutes from his office, and our city's public transportation would not help him at all. We're fortunate, he drives a company car.

But our situation is pretty common for our area - excepting the employer assistance (we're literally about ten miles from the city line for Richmond). Lots of people live anywhere from 20 to 90 minutes outside of the city and drive in each day. And unlike Boston, New York, ect, we don't have mass transit to transport these people in and out of the city.

We live 45 minutes outside of Richmond, and while I stay home and don't NEED to go into town for work, that's where the pediatrician, the OB, Costco, whatever. My husband commutes 1 hour 45 minutes to NoVA and we couldn't afford to live closer if we wanted to.

becca011906

04-25-2007, 08:28 AM

I really HATE the gas prices i drive 4 miles to town 3-4 times a day... walmart (crapy one) is about 25miles, good walmart, target, mall, ect is atleast 60 miles away...
I also travel over a 100 span of north and south from my home to do home visits for WIC... i get paid .40 a mile for that but still it's NOT FUN! I always drive the intrepid durring work.
But my other car the land rover requires premium gas ONLY and the milage is about 10 miles a gallon city and only about 18 miles to gallon high way... i really miss driving it (usally only get to about 1 time a week right now) :(

TheRealMacGyver

04-25-2007, 08:50 AM

But my other car the land rover requires premium gas ONLY and the milage is about 10 miles a gallon city and only about 18 miles to gallon high way

OUCH Becky! 10 MPG:thumbsdown: You could drive a motorhome and get that kind of mileage. You know I was surprised when I found out how many cars today require premium gas. I never by high-end sports cars and such, so I never realized it until talking with friends that have them. That's a real bummer. So, just throwing some numbers together here, say premium is $3.25/g, then that would mean you are paying $0.325 per mile in gas only. That leaves you (at the IRS rate) 7.5 cents per mile for wear and tear. In comparison my Prius costs about $0.076 cents per mile (using $2.89/g & 38 MPG), leaving 32.4 cents for wear and tear. Well, at least your not driving the Monstrosity (Hummer).

joolsplus3

04-25-2007, 09:09 AM

No, that would NOT help. Cars are more efficient now than they've ever been, even for cars that are ten-twelve years old. Gov't rations would put a LOT of people out of work in many places - most areas in the US are not set up with alternative transportation.

We moved closer to dh's job three years ago - to a house purchased by and rented from his employer's parents. Last year we purchased the house with financing from them, otherwise we could never have done it. Before the move, dh was commuting 45 minutes (all highway) ONE WAY to work each day. We could not afford to live closer, and there wasn't a decent job in his field in our small town. We still live 20-30 minutes from his office, and our city's public transportation would not help him at all. We're fortunate, he drives a company car.

But our situation is pretty common for our area - excepting the employer assistance (we're literally about ten miles from the city line for Richmond). Lots of people live anywhere from 20 to 90 minutes outside of the city and drive in each day. And unlike Boston, New York, ect, we don't have mass transit to transport these people in and out of the city.

Nah, cars aren't really more efficient, the CAFE standard hasn't been raised, and cars keep getting heavier and heavier with airbags and stereos and airconditioners... I'm sure my neighbor's Expedition isn't getting any better gas mileage than Frankencaddy did :whistle: (Even my Ford Escape Hybrid only gets 28 mpg...I'd be better off in a Civic, from a safety and gas mileage perspective....:o )

southpawboston

04-25-2007, 09:36 AM

Nah, cars aren't really more efficient, the CAFE standard hasn't been raised, and cars keep getting heavier and heavier with airbags and stereos and airconditioners... I'm sure my neighbor's Expedition isn't getting any better gas mileage than Frankencaddy did :whistle: (Even my Ford Escape Hybrid only gets 28 mpg...I'd be better off in a Civic, from a safety and gas mileage perspective....:o )

yes, totally. this was mentioned in "an inconvenient truth". and it's practical knowledge as well... our old 80s accord got 35mpg... no accord today except for the hybrid comes close to that. my old VW scirocco got 33mpg. there is NO new VW that gets close to that except for the turbodiesel models.

so while there *are* some quite efficient cars out there, the corporate average fleet economy (CAFE) has not been raised in how long? at least 10-15 years i think (i could be wrong).

TheRealMacGyver

04-25-2007, 09:43 AM

so while there *are* some quite efficient cars out there, the corporate average fleet economy (CAFE) has not been raised in how long? at least 10-15 years i think (i could be wrong).

That's an interesting point Southpaw, I remember my brother had an 1980-ish VW Rabbit that was a diesel. He consistently got 50-60 MPG !!!! Is it the emmissions garb that is killing the mileage or something else?

Anyhow, I would just feel better if all of you would start complaining about gas prices!:D

Starlight

04-25-2007, 09:53 AM

We're in the $2.65-2.75 range, and I haven't changed my gas $ budget.

I spend $20 every 2 weeks for gas. That's it. When it runs out, it runs out, and we just don't go anywhere.

I don't drive very far - to the grocery store, the mall 1x per week, to ds1's practices/games, thats about it.

skaterbabscpst

04-25-2007, 09:58 AM

My husband and I have made it a life goal to always live within 15 minutes of his work. Hopefully, we'll be able to keep that up. Right now, we are really lucky. I don't even really need a car. :)

Erika

Unfortunately, in our area the housing costs are so high that it's just not possible in many cases. Living 30 miles out from the city can drop housing costs for rentals nearly by half, and buying is probably ten thousand dollars less.

We live 45 minutes outside of Richmond, and while I stay home and don't NEED to go into town for work, that's where the pediatrician, the OB, Costco, whatever. My husband commutes 1 hour 45 minutes to NoVA and we couldn't afford to live closer if we wanted to.

Exactly.

Nah, cars aren't really more efficient, the CAFE standard hasn't been raised, and cars keep getting heavier and heavier with airbags and stereos and airconditioners... I'm sure my neighbor's Expedition isn't getting any better gas mileage than Frankencaddy did :whistle: (Even my Ford Escape Hybrid only gets 28 mpg...I'd be better off in a Civic, from a safety and gas mileage perspective....:o )

Frankencaddy got the most horrific gas milage of any sedan I've ever seen, about 12 mpg city - but comparing an Expedition to a large sedan is apples to oranges. You'd have to compare a new Expedition to the old Expedition for the numbers to be accurate.

As far as "An Inconvienent Truth", SPB, the science in that so-called "documentary" is so faulty and biased, I'm surprised you actually accept anything said. Far too many reputable scientists disagree with that entire theory for that waste of film to be considered a source.

Sure, we are having a global climate change. We're coming out of a blooming mini-ice age, for goodness sake! The earth is warmer? OK - Warmer than WHEN?

vonfirmath

04-25-2007, 11:02 AM

everyone keeps referring to how other countries (esp. european ones) pay more for gas, but also keep in mind that they have much more choices for cars that are *far* more economical than what we have here. their average fuel economy is probably close to twice what it is here in the US. for example, you can buy my car in europe with any one of five engine choices... from 1.6L up to 2.0L for the high end version. in the US, there is only ONE option... a 2.3L!!!!! it gets about half the highway efficiency as the 1.6L version available in europe. so it is still costing me more per mile to drive than it would in europe (with a smaller engine).

I don't know where you get that there is only 1 option for engine in the US.
A 2001 Saturn SW2 has a 1.9L, 4 cylinder engine
The 4 cylinder engine in a 1994 Buick Skylark is 2.3 L
The 6 cylinder engine in a 1994 Buick Skylark is 3.1 L
The 2007 Pontiac Montana has a 3.9L engine in it.

PS these are all American cars.
And I've been much happier with the cars with the higher L in the engine. To the point I no longer look at cars with a smaller L rating on their engine because you can feel it in the way the car responds.

vonfirmath

04-25-2007, 11:08 AM

yes, totally. this was mentioned in "an inconvenient truth". and it's practical knowledge as well... our old 80s accord got 35mpg... no accord today except for the hybrid comes close to that. my old VW scirocco got 33mpg. there is NO new VW that gets close to that except for the turbodiesel models.

so while there *are* some quite efficient cars out there, the corporate average fleet economy (CAFE) has not been raised in how long? at least 10-15 years i think (i could be wrong).

I don't know about Accords but my Saturn Station Wagon gets 31 mpg. None of our station wagons growing up got that high of gas mileage. My dad's Volkswagon did, but it was a tiny car and ran on diesel. Stuff running on diesel does tend to get better gas mileage (thus the reason I guess it is used for the trucks and such)

My friend's hybrid, in actual use, gets in the low 40s mpg. So I'm happy with my Saturn and willing to sacrifice some of that mpg for a larger car when we get our Pontiac Montana in September.

(and that willingness to sacrifice mpg for larger car is one reason that CAFEs has not been raised. Companies have to be able to SELL the cars they make and tend to make what people want to buy... When you're talking putting 3-4 carseats in a car, this really starts meaning that people want the larger vans.)

Loves2sing

04-25-2007, 11:31 AM

Unfortunatley you are going to have to get used to the higher gas prices, because it is not going to change. A lot of the oil, and natural gas comes from Canada, where we are having a problem with GreenPeace and the government trying to very quietley shut our oil industries down. The lay offs are starting, and even in Calgary, where we used to be at least $0.10 a litre less than the rest of the country, we are at the same price as everywhere else. It isn't going to change because of the whole Global Warming problem. Which brings up another interesting point. I saw a documentary on You Tube about Global Warming that basically says that the earth is warming up, but there is nothing we can do to stop it, because the earth naturally gets colder and warmer throughout history. It was interesting.

Jeanum

04-25-2007, 11:33 AM

We rarely drive more than 10K miles per year combined in our 2 vehicles. DH telecommutes at times and I try to combine errand trips as much as possible. We usually fill up the Sienna and Saturn gas tanks about every 3 weeks when their gauges drop down to 1/2 or 1/4 full. The Saturn's gas mileage is not much better lately than the Sienna's despite a tuneup and regular maintenance, argh. It's a 4-cylinder Saturn L-series sedan rated at 24 city/33 hwy but averages 20-22 MPG in mixed driving at best lately. Our former cars, Saturn S-series, easily got 30-40 mpg, and my former Saturn Vue (V6) rarely got more than 20 mpg. Even though it's not more than a few miles to the nearest stores, walking/biking are not an option here because of the lack of sidewalks and bike lanes, and there's no public transit service in my immediate area.

Gas stations sometimes get into price wars around here where if one lowers their price, the stations down the road will follow suit. I sometimes try timing errands and gas fillups to coincide with the drop in prices and will look at sites like http://www.gasbuddy.com/ for local pricing info. to plan ahead a bit. It's currently about $2.77-2.89/gal in my area. The price used to spike up predictably right before weekends and drop after the weekend, but now the pricing shifts seem more random.

southpawboston

04-25-2007, 12:19 PM

As far as "An Inconvienent Truth", SPB, the science in that so-called "documentary" is so faulty and biased, I'm surprised you actually accept anything said. Far too many reputable scientists disagree with that entire theory for that waste of film to be considered a source.

Sure, we are having a global climate change. We're coming out of a blooming mini-ice age, for goodness sake! The earth is warmer? OK - Warmer than WHEN?

don't even go there. we can continue via PM if you want, but this is surely going to turn into a heated debate if you bring this up publicy. expect a PM from me soon. ;)

southpawboston

04-25-2007, 12:27 PM

I don't know where you get that there is only 1 option for engine in the US.

i believe i said there was only one engine for *my* car, the mazda3S. you can verify this if you compare this car on mazdausa.com and on mazda.co.uk, the UK mazda website. and three of the four cars you mentioned have one engine choice, so i'm not sure of your point. in some european markets, you will have 4-6 engine choices, depending on your needs. we simply do not have that choice here. not all americans want or need 300hp, for god's sake! ;) my point in all of this is that we should at least have the choice of buying a car with a powerful yet gas guzzling, or weaker but more efficient, engine. i would have *gladly* opted for a smaller engine in my mazda3 if it meant squeezing out an additional 8-10 mpg.

Simplysomething

04-25-2007, 12:38 PM

I don't know where you get that there is only 1 option for engine in the US.
A 2001 Saturn SW2 has a 1.9L, 4 cylinder engine
The 4 cylinder engine in a 1994 Buick Skylark is 2.3 L
The 6 cylinder engine in a 1994 Buick Skylark is 3.1 L
The 2007 Pontiac Montana has a 3.9L engine in it.

PS these are all American cars.
And I've been much happier with the cars with the higher L in the engine. To the point I no longer look at cars with a smaller L rating on their engine because you can feel it in the way the car responds.

He wasn't saying that there wasn't other types of engines available in the in US. He was saying that THAT particular car was only available with ONE type of engine. Pointing out that there are other cars doesn't disprove what he was saying at all.

ETA: Duh, he beat me to it. lol

southpawboston

04-25-2007, 12:40 PM

Pointing out that there are other cars doesn't disprove what he was saying at all.

and in fact, pointing out three out of four american cars with only one engine choice actually supports exactly what i was saying. :)

vonfirmath

04-25-2007, 01:53 PM

don't even go there. we can continue via PM if you want, but this is surely going to turn into a heated debate if you bring this up publicy. expect a PM from me soon. ;)

The person who brought up Inconvenient Truth as a source for data was the one who started the debate; it is perfectly okay to refute a data source that was already being brought up -- and should be done or everyone goes on thinking that the first person was accurate in using it as a data source.

vonfirmath

04-25-2007, 01:55 PM

and in fact, pointing out three out of four american cars with only one engine choice actually supports exactly what i was saying. :)

Sorry Southpaw, I did not understand that you were saying a specific car only had one engine choice.

I guess that does not bother me. When I want a specific engine, I go looking for cars that have that engine. I have never fallen in love with a specific car to the extent that I want to have that car in multiple engine choices so I can get exactly the engine I want.

There is enough variety in cars out there that this is a non-issue to me.

TheRealMacGyver

04-25-2007, 02:07 PM

I guess that does not bother me. When I want a specific engine, I go looking for cars that have that engine. I have never fallen in love with a specific car to the extent that I want to have that car in multiple engine choices so I can get exactly the engine I want.

There is enough variety in cars out there that this is a non-issue to me.

vonfirmath, I think you totally missed the point he was trying to make. The point is that if you compare EU gas prices to US you are not comparing apples to apples because the automobile market there is totally different than it is here. He (southpaw) was using his car as an example to illustrate that it is available with a variety of engine sizes, which directly effects the MPG of that car.

DaniCPST

04-25-2007, 02:48 PM

The problem with using that argument is that US household budgets are likely to not stretch with the sudden increase in gas costs. If one is raised with high costs, then it's part of the budget. But if you're already stretched to the max, then the additional $50 or more extra can seriously injure the family's financial health. It is a shock to the pocketbook. Getting rid of the gas guzzler that has payments left on it won't be easy at all.

I do not understand this logic at all. You are saying that US households are worse at budegting their money than people in other countries? And because of this we have the right to complain about the change in gas prices? Any household in the US who doesn't leave enough breathing room in their budget for a $.40 per gallon change in the price of gas has wayyy bigger issues to worry about.

DaniCPST

04-25-2007, 02:54 PM

The person who brought up Inconvenient Truth as a source for data was the one who started the debate; it is perfectly okay to refute a data source that was already being brought up -- and should be done or everyone goes on thinking that the first person was accurate in using it as a data source.

Have to agree with this statement. If you want to bring up the garbage spewed in Inconvenient Truth then you da*n well better be prepared to support what you find to be true in it. If you don't want to "go there" then don't bring it up in the first place. I am sure on this board there will be far less people here to dispute it's trash than on other boards since this board seems to lean to the left a lot. But luckily someone spoke up.:p

jef

04-25-2007, 02:57 PM

Here in The Netherlands it's even worse. We pay about 1.36€/l (7.02$/gal). Even when you keep in mind that European cars are more fuel efficient that's still quite a lot.

Morganthe

04-25-2007, 03:31 PM

I do not understand this logic at all. You are saying that US households are worse at budegting their money than people in other countries? And because of this we have the right to complain about the change in gas prices? Any household in the US who doesn't leave enough breathing room in their budget for a $.40 per gallon change in the price of gas has wayyy bigger issues to worry about.

No, I'm not saying that US households are worse at budgeting (worse at savings though and that's pretty much a fact these days, but I"m not going there at the moment. It's just not encouraged.).

For the last 10+ years, European gas prices have held steady at $5-6 a gallon due to using litres as a measurement and high taxes. In fact when I was living there in 1990 and traveling in 1980-1985 during summers, there were a lot less personally owned cars due to the extremely high expense of driving school, purchasing a driver's license, vehicle purchase prices, insurance costs, & fuel prices. BUT there were alternatives that made it possible to get by without too much trouble. Public transportation was inexpensive and ran on time.

Over the years, in proportion to avg income in Europe, every cost except for fuel prices has decreased. Vehicles have become extremely efficent & comfortable in small sizes. SUVs are run on diesel and are also affordable. Those who are wealthy pay the extra premium tax for luxury vehicles that are gas guzzlers. But EVERYONE who purchases a car knows that to run it will be expensive in gas price. It's part of the household budget. Public transportation in comparison has increased in costs and efficiency has decreased, especially in Germany where everyone complains how late the trains are these days. So there has been a significant increase in vehicle ownership over there in comparison to 10 years ago.

What was the average gas price here in the US 3 years ago? $1.85-$2 and people were complaining then it was hurting because 3 years prior it was hovering around $1.20. Now it's over $3. Last year, with inflation considered, it was actually higher in proportion than the gas crunch in the late 1970s. If this keeps increasing, it will be higher than Europe in the next 3 years. OUCH! That's a drastic change.

I don't know about you, but many families are spread thin financially making ends meet. It's not a personality failing as you're making it out to be. Every penny counts. It's sometimes cost effective to live further away from work in many areas & commute long distances. When gas prices rise, then where does the extra money appear from?

We have a right to complain. Especially when Oil Companies are reporting RECORD Profits! Look at their spread sheets for last year available. CEOs are getting richer while the disparity between workers and management increases. And we think there's natural ethics in Business corporations. Hah!

But while I believe we can complain, I seriously doubt that it will make little effect on anything. We're not the type of country to effect change by protest. Look at our efforts to create medical care at affordable rates for everyone. Pathetic. And that's where everyone should care, especially those who are self-employed and those with children.

getting off my soapbox now :) Sorry for the long explanation, but I dislike pithy soundbites ripped from the latest populist assault on those who really try to care about someone other than themselves & the wealthy.

skaterbabscpst

04-25-2007, 03:42 PM

I saw a documentary on You Tube about Global Warming that basically says that the earth is warming up, but there is nothing we can do to stop it, because the earth naturally gets colder and warmer throughout history. It was interesting.

That's true. A good friend of mine is a hitorian and she can pinpoint several points throughout history during which we had mini-ice ages. When me my FIL was in school, environmentalists were screaming abut global cooling.

don't even go there. we can continue via PM if you want, but this is surely going to turn into a heated debate if you bring this up publicy. expect a PM from me soon. ;)

You brought it up - not me. if you want to quote a source, perhaps you should chose one with actual science to back it up instead of propganda.

The person who brought up Inconvenient Truth as a source for data was the one who started the debate; it is perfectly okay to refute a data source that was already being brought up -- and should be done or everyone goes on thinking that the first person was accurate in using it as a data source.

:thumbsup:

Have to agree with this statement. If you want to bring up the garbage spewed in Inconvenient Truth then you da*n well better be prepared to support what you find to be true in it. If you don't want to "go there" then don't bring it up in the first place. I am sure on this board there will be far less people here to dispute it's trash than on other boards since this board seems to lean to the left a lot. But luckily someone spoke up.:p

:yeahthat:

Niea

04-25-2007, 03:53 PM

I don't know about you, but many families are spread thin financially making ends meet. It's not a personality failing as you're making it out to be. Every penny counts. It's sometimes cost effective to live further away from work in many areas & commute long distances. When gas prices rise, then where does the extra money appear from?

It should come from the same place it comes from for anything else. What does that family do when property taxes increase, or the price of gas and electricity go up? What about when sales tax goes up? Where does that money come from?

When making a budget, a person should always assume that prices will go up. Because of inflation, because of taxes, because of drought, because of whatever. Prices rarely go down.

I can appreciate that living further out and commuting can be more cost effective than living in the city. But a lot of people don't assume prices will go up, or they don't plan ahead. They assume things will stay exactly as they are. If gas prices were $3.50 when that decision was made, would it have still be cost effective? Maybe, may not depending on the area.

It's like all the people who bought houses using ARMs. . .now that the 5yr period is up, the mortgage payment jumped! And may people now find that they can't afford their house. But that's lack of planning and a lack of forsight of what might happen 5 years down the road.

Whether gas prices or mortgages or anything else, it's all a gambling game. And usually the person that bets against decreasing prices comes out ahead.

Morganthe

04-25-2007, 04:13 PM

It should come from the same place it comes from for anything else. What does that family do when property taxes increase, or the price of gas and electricity go up? What about when sales tax goes up? Where does that money come from?

When making a budget, a person should always assume that prices will go up. Because of inflation, because of taxes, because of drought, because of whatever. Prices rarely go down.
Whether gas prices or mortgages or anything else, it's all a gambling game. And usually the person that bets against decreasing prices comes out ahead.

Agree with you in principle, but in practice, taking the high moral ground isn't always possible.

I'm looking at my property tax doubling from last year. Yes -- DOUBLING! A painful doubling too. Not just going up a couple of hundred dollars, but considerably more.
Proportionately, my parents' house in WA is assessed 5x higher. But in TX, my tax cost is HIGHER even with deductions for homestead & disability figured in. Neither states have Income tax, so they're comparable. At least they're not due until the end of the year. But OUCH!

Quality of life between the two areas don't even compare. Pity.

But there's the assumption again that there's money to spare from the basic needs of life to have flexibility in a budget. How nice if that's possible :) Many times there isn't. :shrug-shoulders:

southpawboston

04-25-2007, 04:22 PM

You brought it up - not me. if you want to quote a source, perhaps you should chose one with actual science to back it up instead of propganda.

i think that you, thefosters.2, and vonfirmath have either forgotten what i had said, or misread it:

if you read my post #34, you'll see that i was replying to joolsplus3's comment about CAFE standards not being raised in years... and that i had learned about that fact from that movie. that is an irrefutable fact, not disputed by any political party. look it up anywhere. it's public knowledge. i didn't refer to "inconvenient truth" for any opinionated debate. but since you saw that i had quoted the movie, you assumed the information i was quoting was biased, politically based, or controversial.

quite the contrary. but then, my reference of a fact from the movie was dismissed as biased propaganda. i did not reference any controversial element to the global warming debate.

(but i still believe the science that was quoted in the movie above any white house administration manipulation of the real, publicly funded, peer-reviewed data ;))

BrookeSLP

04-25-2007, 04:46 PM

One of the reasons gas is so high is that environmentalists have successfully lobbied to keep new refineries from being built. The oil can't be turned into gas fast enough with the few refineries we have. Also, I agree with the global warming thing. My DH, a hyrdologist/water engineer has been saying that the warming 'crisis' is just a normal flucuation of the earth for years.

Interesting thread!

amy919

04-25-2007, 05:07 PM

I'm going to pretty much stay out of this one, but I don't complain about it here because my mom always told me that if I don't have anything nice to stay, I should keep my mouth shut!

Suffice it to say I am a Democrat and cannot wait for the next election. I'm not even going there on the Inconvenient Truth topic...

Amy

Simplysomething

04-25-2007, 06:02 PM

quite the contrary. but then, my reference of a fact from the movie was dismissed as biased propaganda. i did not reference any controversial element to the global warming debate.

(but i still believe the science that was quoted in the movie above any white house administration manipulation of the real, publicly funded, peer-reviewed data ;))

I didn't see anything controversial referenced except the film itself. Which I wonder if it would be half as debated if it weren't for the guy behind it. But it makes it harder to dismiss it as some loony environmentalist, no you can just dismiss him as some loony lefty.

And I have a hard time believing anything that the current administration tells me. But that might be a little bit of a bias thing going back a bit. But at least I admit it and don't pretend to be unbiased at all.

It amazes me that we've sort of lost the ability in this country to debate anything without resorting to an us verus them thing. Ha, that's where I pretend that we ever had that ability.

I will say this, if we all changed our habits--and then discovered, oops the science was wrong--will humankind be any worse off?
If we don't change our habits and come to find out the science was RIGHT, we're screwed. That's all I'm saying.

(and for the record...And I'm not just saying that because he helped me figure out what was wrong with my car. lol).

Oh well.